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Did Titanic sink?

Discussion in 'Conspiracy theories' started by Halfhidden, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Here are a few facts and some theories that surround the mystery of the sinking of the Titanic.
    Not a lot of people are aware that there were three ships were built at Harland and Wolff shipyard by White Star Line between 1909 -1911, but two in particular were almost identical. Those two ships were the Titanic and her sister ships the Olympic. The third ship being Britannica.
    The building of the Olympic started three months earlier than the Titanic so that the shipyard could cope with these two massive jobs. The Olympic and the Titanic were set to be the largest ships in the world.
    The Olympic was completed before the Titanic and her maiden voyage took place 14[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1911 to New York and return. The journey was successful. On 20[SUP]th[/SUP] September 1911 the Olympic collided with HMS Hawke off the Isle of White leaving the Olympic in serious damage (See pic below).
    Hawke_-_Olympic_collision.JPG titanic-sinking-ship.jpg
    The extent of the damage wasn’t apparent until the Olympic was back in docks. Although the Olympic was able to make her way to Southampton under her own steam, she was quickly transferred back to her original docks in Belfast for the extensive repair job. But it took a fortnight of emergency patching to Olympic´s hull before she was in any fit state to attempt the voyage from Southampton to Belfast for more complete repairs. Able only to use one main engine, the crippled liner made the voyage at an average speed of about 10 knots, wasting the exhaust steam from the one usable engine. This steam would normally have driven the central turbine engine, which shows that this engine, its mountings or shafting, had been damaged in the collision. As this engine sat on the centerline of the vessel, immediately above the keel, which the damaged propeller shaft ran through, we can reasonably assume that the keel itself was damaged. Damage reports had found that the outer covering of one of the propellers had been severely damaged, the crankshaft had been damaged, and the bearing within the propeller had also been bent. The central turbine engine was unusable and the impact of the Hawke’s iron ram had caused vast internal damage to the Olympic. The Titanic and Olympic had cost a fortune to build, and would require years of operation before the company would see any profit. It was absolutely necessary to get the Olympic up and running. This was a financial disaster for White Star Line, not only because of the damage to the liner, but the loss of revenue because of cancellations of the future cruises. To make matters worse the Royal Navy concluded that the accident was the fault of White Star Line because their ship was so big that the displacement caused dragged the Hawke into her. This meant that the White Star Line was now responsible not only for the repair costs of their liner, but also the HMS Hawke and no insurance pay out. This left White Star Line with a reported bill of £45 million repair bill to the navy. As you read above during the accident the propeller of the Olympic became damages and in order for the Olympic to be repaired and sent on a voyage the propeller from the Titanic was used. This delayed the launch of the Titanic for several weeks. Back in the builders´ yard, work progressed steadily on the battered hull of Olympic. It must have been obvious from quite early on that the vessel was beyond economic repair, so these repairs need not have been quite as thorough as they otherwise might have been. Instead of replacing the damaged section of keel, longitudinal bulkheads were installed to brace it.
    The torn plating and buckled ribs were straightened or replaced, a new propeller shaft and propeller was fitted and the damaged central turbine propeller shaft was patched up.
    This is where the ships were swapped. The Titanic (which was still being built) was swapped with the Olympic. The builder’s yard didn’t have spares so they took what they could from the Titanic and altered the Olympic to look like the Titanic in order to meet the maiden voyage or risk losing the £10million cruise fare. According to most experts the builder’s yard would have taken a day to change the propeller but the work took weeks.
    When the Olympic was originally launched several days of sea trials were taken, but the Titanic was only given about 4 hours of sea trial and was never taken beyond moderate sea speeds unlike the Olympic which was taken to full speed (23 knots). So was this because the ships had been swapped and trials were being conducted on a crippled ship rather than the real Titanic?
    Story has it that the Titanic hit an iceberg on her maiden voyage and sank with a loss of 1,514 souls
    Here are some facts that you might be interested in:

    Harland & Wolff (the ship builders) had no spare engine crankshaft, propeller, or propeller shaft on hand to replace those damaged items on Olympic , except ones awaiting fitments to her sister vessel, Titanic. Essentially, the Olympic was repaired with parts from the unfinished Titanic, some of which can still be seen. One of the propellers still bears the 01 from the Titanic, which was model 401. It should also be noted that the bent bearing, which was designed to last a lifetime was never commissioned to be replaced. This would have resulted in a shaky voyage, which was noted by a passenger and survivor by the name of Lawrence Beesley.
    Both the Titanic and Olympic were not initially designed to have bulkheads installed, but one was put into the Olympic to repair the damage to the hull. When Dr. Robert Ballard found the wreckage of the Titanic, he found a bulkhead which was not mentioned on any of the initial plans.
    The Olympic was painted grey. This was done to aid photographs of the ship. It was a common practice as all photographs were black and white at the time. However, Titanic was painted black and never grey. Yet wreckage of the Titanic clearly shows grey paint.
    In 1911 the Olympic was photographed clearly showing the join in her hull, yet the repair suddenly vanishes in photographs taken in 1912.
    Olympic with damaged joint plating.jpg her to have had a joint in her hull plating immediately forward of the hawse hole, third row of black plating from the top.

    Yet here is the Olympic taken year later and the repair has mysteriously vanished.
    Olympic without damaged joint plating.jpg

    The Titanic was finally discovered and some of the theories about the swap can be put to the test. Below is a picture taken of the Titanic's propeller as it lies at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean. Although the propeller is stamped with number 401 (Titanic's yard number) it is missing the thrust bearing. This is consistent to the damaged caused to the Olympic. Titanic had never been in an accident and therefore the thrust bearing would have been in place.
    titanic propeller.JPG
     
  2. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    It is widely thought that the ship was meant to be sunk in order to claim the insurance. The sister ship was close by ready to collect survivors, but the ship sank too quickly for any real help to come.
    Two other ships were within 20 miles of the Titanic and could have gone to the rescue but didn't.
    Some of the lifeboats had the name "Olympic" carved in the boats despite the name Titanic painted on the shells.
     
  3. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    Please!

    This has been placed in query for TOO many years, I have been in correspondence with many serious maritime contacts over the last 20 years, with connections on Ships Nostalgia. I am satisfied with the facts that the vessel sank with great loss of life, from this lives and other vessels have been improved. Most arguments are based on idiotic conspiracy theories, with NO knowledge at all of the reality of it all, in ANY fashion.
     
  4. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree! sad loss of life indeed. The theory puts some interesting facts in place. Especially in 1985 when the Titanic was re-discovered. It also explains why an Olympic style cruiser that was all but written off stayed in service for 35 years gaining the reputation and name of "Old reliable".
    Is there any particular part you find not acceptable in the findings above?
     
  5. duffy

    duffy Member

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    This "conspiracy theory", like others before will inevitably fail. For instance, all of the wild speculation about the moon landings being a setup has been dealt the death blow by evidence such as this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2034594/NASA-moon-landing-hoax-New-photographs-silence-conspiracy-theory.html


    (Of course somebody will now come up with the "theory" that of course, NASA had to send some people to the Moon to make these tracks to cover up their cover up!!!!)

    I have a very big problem with the human factor in all these "theories". The moon landings and 911 notwithstandng, I defy anyone to tell me that out the huge workforce that would have to have been involved in this "swopping" of major ship parts or even whole ships, not one person be it labourer, engineer or architect said not say a single word to anyone outside of that "conspiracy" about what was going on?

    Human nature if nothing else would have caused somebody to say something to someone, unless of course, there was really nothing to be said in the first place.

    Duffy.
     
  6. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Not sure I agree with that. There are an equal amount of people who walk about with their eyes wide shut. But to try and attempt to answer your question regarding the workers and why gossip wasn't ripe... well here goes (obviously this is speculation as is your question)
    In 1911 people had a whole different attitude towards work. They were skilled or labourers, but either way they were given instruction that they carried out without question. Parts were forever being swapped between ships so there was no reason why the majority of the workforce would be any the wiser. If you doubt that a collusion wasn't at play between senior members of staff, then you only need look at the world war. The Nazi's colluded to keep terrible secrets from their own troops and the rest of the world.
    But in any case the wreckage of the ship at the bottom of the Atlantic tells a different story. Questions have been asked and in some cases the wreckage gives evidence that brings the story of the Titanic in to question. Unlike other theories the Titanic has a tangible wreckage to investigate.
     
  7. duffy

    duffy Member

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    Walking around “with eyes wide shut” has always been with us, regrettably more so especially in these modern times with the denuclearizing of families as more people just don’t want to be “involved”. I take your point about not answering back and doing what the boss tells you without question whether it meant losing your job or just basic kowtowing to the superior (and usually richer middle/upper classes). However, I consider it inconceivable that such a large proportion of the population kept silent about such a humongous fraud, especially given their nationality and predilection for the “Crack”.
    “The Nazi's colluded to keep terrible secrets from their own troops and the rest of the world.”
    The might of the Nazi Party was brought to bear in issuing a denial of what was really happening in those camps. Propaganda was honed to its highest degree by those evil minded people. Fear of the SS on one hand a blinding faith in the morally corrupt leader led to denial and secrecy leading that nation to deny any knowledge of any wrongdoing. Even if, once the horrendous truth became known it was a means that enabled them to save their own lives.
    That parts, spare or new were always being swapped between different projects is not in question. What is however, is that the workforce tasked with both building the new “Titanic” and repairing the damaged “Olympic” would have known what was going on simply because of location. With both ships being workd on in the same facility it would be pretty hard to hide what was going on, if indeed anything was. Do not forget, we are talking about a Great Britain in the early years of the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century. A free nation with strict moral code and even stricter adherence to a religious faith, regardless of which was followed. It is my belief that there were much more moral people than we see today. They truly knew the difference between what was right and what was wrong so I just cannot see every single one of them or their family and friends saying absolutely nothing. If the evidence truly is lying down there on the seabed and there has indeed been a conspiracy, why has nobody actually produced this plethora of “proof”? However one thing is certain and this is not a personal belief and not aimed at anyone in particular, conspiracy theories will always abound as long as there are enough people to perpetuate them.
     
  8. Pokerboy

    Pokerboy Dev Team Administrator

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    My initial posting and my theory on what really happened.

    When we think of events that have transpired in history over the last one hundred to two hundred years, there are certain events that stand out as ones of great horror, great surprise and great sadness. Of the many that come to mind the most devastating have been the destruction of The World Trade Centre in New York City and the sinking of the Titanic. You’ve done well in your write up Halfhidden I’m quite impressed with your on-look into this theory and your findings into the still hugely debated subject of the Titanic sinking. As one who’s partial to ‘Conspiracy Theories’ I’ve already read up a lot about this subject a few years ago and I was surprised to learn some interesting facts that you’ve mentioned in your initial posts.
    I was already aware of the sister ship the Olympic with its collision with HMS Hawke in 1911.

    In my findings it wasn’t common knowledge that J.P. Morgan and Harland & Wolff where in financial difficulties as at this same time the UK was going through its worst ever coal shortages and many big liner companies grounded their fleets in protest. Also to add confusion it wasn’t publically known at the time (from my findings) that people were aware of the huge financial costs The White Star Line company had lost because they had to pay towards the repair of HMS Hawke after it collided with The Olympic in 1911 as well as the repair bill for their own ship too. Some reports say it was as much as £10 - £15 Million that’s a staggering value of over £100 million in today’s money. (With inflation and value of GDP)

    My findings are a little out of the box and I’ll do my best to keep you all on track as I go along but here is what I think happened and why what happened was no freak accident of nature.
    So you already know that J.P. Morgan had to pay out a huge bill for an accident that really wasn’t the fault of his company but aside from this their flag ship liner The Titanic was coming over budget and taking far too long to finish. Because the Olympic and The Titanic where sister ships they were almost identical to the untrained eye and the plan was hatched to swap them over sink the titanic claim on the insurance and live a life as full as possible while continuing to reap the rewards of global travel using the sister ship, well that was the theory but in reality a set of events made that near impossible.
    Since the early 1830’s, America did not have a central bank. In 1910, seven men met on Jekyll Island just off the coast of Georgia to establish a central bank, which they called the Federal Reserve Bank. These men were Nelson Aldrich and Frank Vanderlip, both representing the Rockefeller financial empire; Henry Davison, Charles Norton, and Benjamin Strong, representing J.P. Morgan; and Paul Warburg, representing the Rothschild banking dynasty of Europe. We have already seen that the Rothschilds were the banking agents for the papacy’s Jesuits, holding “the key to the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church.”
    In this era the federal reserve was being put together and a few of the world’s most richest families didn’t want to have it commissioned, this was mainly because it’ll take a good % of their wealth & fortune which they disagreed with. Now J.P. Morgan (the co-owner of White Star Line Company) was one of the leading men on this project to get things signed by any means. Your thinking what this has got to do with the sinking of the Titanic well below I’ve simplified things for you;

    Was the Titanic a death trap designed to murder billionaires like John Jacob Astor (net worth in 1911 of around £100 million, he was the richest man in the world at the time) who withstood J. P. Morgan and Rockefeller’s plan for the Federal Reserve banking system now robbing the entire world, while financing international wars? Before you dismiss this as “conspiracy theory” you might want to read the book “Futility, the Wreck of the Titan” published in 1898, which predicted this event in almost exact detail 14 years before it happened! The novel is about a ship called the Titan, the largest ocean liner in the world that sinks in the North Atlantic after hitting an ice shelf—virtually identical to the Titanic disaster. Read up on the book here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futility,_or_the_Wreck_of_the_Titan

    When the Olympic went in for repair back in Belfast Ireland it spent 14 days in dock instead of its estimated 4 days, now according to many officials the damage done to the Olympic classed the ship as a rite off. The damage done by HMS Hawke basically broke the ships back. The wreck on the Atlantic floor bears the scars of a Bolt Brace similar to one that was fitted to the Olympic, none of these braces have been officially documented but there was speculation at H&W during the time that this work had been carried out as a temporary solution. The ship that’s lying on the North Atlantic sea floor has this exact same feature, A bolt Brace which many submariner experts have been unable to explain away its presence as they know the Titanic hadn’t had any hull damage or repairs, unlike the Olympic.


    When the Titanic left Belfast to Southampton to begin its maiden voyage all apart from 1 greaser/coaler (engine room staff) resigned from their positions once safely in port. This is strikingly odd because at the time jobs of this level where like gold dust to have mainly because of the coal strikes in the UK, is it true to say they knew the engines, boilers etc where not new and in fact they realized the ship they were on wasn’t the shiny new Titanic as everyone was lead to believe?

    Many were not aware of the involvement of another ship called the California which was captained by Stanley Lord, this was a passenger & Cargo ship owned by J.P. Morgan, which up until 2 days before Titanic’s main maiden voyage was grounded in London’s port due to no fuel. On the 12[SUP]th[/SUP] April 1912 it was suddenly given coal, ordered to leave port ASAP with bare minimal staff, no cargo or passengers, it also fatally left without taking navigational maps with it . And shockingly enough it had 3,000 large wool blankets & jumpers on bored, it was ordered to sit idle in the North Atlantic 100 miles away from where the Titanic came to rest on the ocean floor on the fateful night of April 15th 1912. Was this meant to be a glorified lifeboat which was expected to pick up many of the Titanic’s 1,500 passengers and crew??

    The next fundamental question is why did the captain of The Titanic Edward Smith ignore the 8 cautions of Iceberg warnings coming from various ships and wire stations across the coasts, After all Cpt. Edward Smith had been travelling the North Atlantic waters for twenty-six years and was the world’s most experienced master of the North Atlantic routes. He had worked for Jesuit, J.P. Morgan, for many years, was he on a mission to sink this vessel?
    Many reports from passengers at the time of this tragedy reported white flares being fired into the air and some reports from ships many hundreds of miles away confirm this story too. White flares on ships are a sign of no problems; it’s a sign of partying or a large celebration (like New Year’s Eve) on deck. Why was no red distress flares fired, many question whether they were even available on the ship to begin with. Also it took over 34 minutes for the Captain to send out a May-Day Distress Call.
    With today’s technology the Titanic has been studied more than any other ship wreck in the world there is one question I personally have though, as a ship of great importance and pride that welcomed the world’s richest aboard who on official records stored gold, jewels and money on-board, why has no evidence of such items been recovered from the many safes found within the Titanic? Is it possible every passenger was robbed while travelling from Southampton to Cobh in Ireland and the loot went with the 7 lucky passengers who departed at Cobh?
    My theory and that is all I portray it to be in this write up is that we are living in a world controlled by a select few people, these people control the heads of states and elect leaders of countries, what wars are started & finished, it dictates which countries go bust and which flourish. But putting this aside they also control how to manipulate or simply shock a population into giving away even more of its rights so that this group can gain stronger power over the use of their policies, which in effect lead to domination of civilizations.

    As the debate goes on I’ll be more involved in supplying specific thread replies to various key points of this debate, this was just my initial posting a kind of toe in the water if you will.

    Resources and links:

    http://www.abandonthecube.com/blog/the-historic-titanic-and-mayflower-passage/
    http://www.titanic-titanic.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3&start=30
    http://www.federaljack.com/index.php?s=the+Titanic+sinking
    http://www.pacinst.com/terrorists/chapter5/titanic.html
    http://www.bobtuskin.com/2011/05/19...-bank-and-the-new-world-order’s-20th-century/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2012
  9. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Interesting reading.
    I understand from the subsequent inquest hearings that the California had entered in to an ice pact and had to stop until the morning. The radio operator tried to warn the Titanic but was told by the Titanic to "Shut up" as he was trying to catch up with personal messages. Although the California had the engines running for heat, the radio operator claimed that he had to shut the radio off for the night. First light or 5am the California set sail out of the ice pact but despite there being a clear path through the ice, the California was ordered to take the opposite direction and sail a great distance before doing a "U" turn. During both British and American inquiries the captain of the California gave three different conditions of the ice that night. Strange for someone with vast experience in that kind of terrain.
    The California was playing an important part in this, but what is unclear. She only had enough space for about a few hundred passengers on board at beat. The Olympic was about 100 miles away, too far for any realistic to help.
    It begs the question, was the California there to pick up only an elite few before the crash?
     
  10. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    Obscene

    Seven members of my family. boarded the liner at Southampton.
    Anne Jenkin Pender(2nd Gt. Aunt )daughter of Barnet Pender.(3rd Gt Grandfather).and elder sister of
    Frederick William Pender(2xGt Grandfather)
    Anne Jenkin Pender married George Neads in 1848 ..... 2nd child.. Eliza Neads (1st Cousin) married
    William Rowe Hocking in 1880 and her three children travelling on the Titanic were 1) Richard George
    Hocking(known as George...2nd cousin) and 2) Emily Richards nee Hocking(2nd cousin) and her two
    children ;William Rowe Richards aged 3....(3rd cousin) and Sibley George Richards; babe in arms(3rd
    cousin.) and 3) Ellen 'Nellie May' Hocking.(2nd cousin)
    All were 2nd Class ticket holders....destination Akron. Ohio Eliza going to live with her son
    Sydney Hocking.
    All survived.....lifeboat No 4. .excepting George (aged 23)..body never recovered.
    Eliza's sister(Ellen Wilkes nee Neads) was also on the Titanic .A 3rd class passenger...survived
    ..lifeboat no 16
    This whole charade is offensive, and plays a mockery on their memory.
    I say again, I have connections with people who have REAL background, this is absurd, besides the
    evidence is there on the sea bed, I have seen the evidence, provided by the team under the ocean. 6x
    dvd, as well as the Cousteau films. This discussion is obscene.
     
  11. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Treeve NOBODY is making a mockery of the tragic loss of life. That is a true tragedy and I'm sure everyone who has read this theory will see that we echo that. This theory is about an insurance scam and possible connections with a world money market.
    I'm sorry you see things in this thread as "obscene", but I fail to see how anyone could possibly derive that from the above.
    There are questions without answers, the wreck has additions that even the builders yard cannot explain. I think that they deserve to be challenged at the very least.

    **EDIT**
    I guess you were referring to the part where Pokerboy suggested that the accident was staged. Well, that would have had to be the case for the ship to get insurrance, but I doubt for one minute that anyone would have staged or planned such a scam if they thought life would be lost.
    If you read through Jason's thread you'll see that he explains about the California and her cargo of 3,000 blankets were close by.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
  12. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    I add that this information has been researched and written by a close friend, with sense, including
    the facts surrounding http://www.titanic-titanic.com/richard_george_hocking.shtml ; I write this in
    support of all Titanic's passengers and crew surviving family; probably the best view of reality may be seen by watching the film 'A Night to Remember'. I hope that no-one else, as I am, is offended by this thread.
     
  13. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Of course I'll look at the link and see what it brings to this thread.
    Well I'm sorry that you find this thread offensive. You have the right to block it rather than take part. But this event, tragic as it is has unanswered questions. All we are trying to do is highlight them here. No more or less than any of the countless Titanic websites out there.
    An example that I used earlier was the world war. There are countless real conspiracies surrounding the war and so many people died, yet people still discuss the war without fear of being branded offensive.
    Don't make this thread out to be anything more than what it is. This is a debate about if the Titanic was swapped with the Olympic and if so why and for what reasons. The tragic loss of life has never been the debate here! God rest their souls!!
     
  14. P_Trembath

    P_Trembath The Best

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    The question as to whether the sinking of the Titanic was a terrible accident, due to incompetence and arrogance, or a deliberate act, is just an example of mans need to assign blame to things that happen that they find horrific.

    There were a number of high ranking officials, mostly male, from both the builders of the ship, and the owners, on board, people who would have been fully aware if the ships had been swapped. These people were, presumably, of at least average intelligence. They would have known that the ship was short on lifeboats, they would have known that there would be loss of life in the event of any incident that involved the actual sinking of the ship (which would have been necessary for the lie to have remained a secret, insurance companies, even then, made exhaustive inquiries before handing over any money), they would have known that if they were on the ship, their lives would be at risk. Such people, with, presumably, everything to live for, would not have put themselves in such a position.

    As has already been stated, if such a switch had been made, there would have been many around who would have been more than willing to have "sold their story". The political situation in Belfast at the time, and all the time following, would have guaranteed that someone would have used such information for political gain.

    In all things that happen to us, or to others, be they small mishaps, or large tragedies, there are always questions that can be asked about coincidences that could, or could not, have had an effect on the event. There will always be those, especially for the larger events, who wish to make more of such coincidences than they "deserve", who are unable to accept the most obvious reasons, who believe they know more than everyone else. It is only on very rare occasions that these people are found to be correct, even then, it is usually found that they are only partly correct, and that the many flights of fancy, the many complicated explanations that they formulate to prove their theories are just that, flights of fancy.

    In almost all human events, it is the simplest explanation that proves to be correct. In this case, there was a big, new, ship, that screamed of luxury, that everyone believed to be unsinkable, although the owners never claimed that to be the case, which had in fact been poorly designed, it was on its maiden voyage, it was being steamed through dangerous waters at a speed that was reckless, and it hit an Iceberg. It then sank, with the loss of far too many people. It is a story of ineptitude, arrogance, and sheer bad luck. Nothing more.

    Treeve, in a way, I agree with you, but unless such discussions are had, the wild theories will continue to be told.
     
  15. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    You may want to look at an article published in the Cornishman newspaper this week.
    The article claims Robert Hitchens became confused and turned the ship into the iceberg instead of away from it. This was based on a novel written by Lady Louise Patten "Good As Gold".

    "Following the disaster, Robert was kept under virtual house arrest while he participated in American and British inquiries: but supposedly enticed by the offer of a lifelong job and good pay in exchange for his silence, and fearing he might not be able to find other work, he remained a White Star Line employee.
    In the immediate aftermath, he was sent to South Africa - as far away from England as possible, and the other side of the world from his family."

    You see there is more to the Titanic incident and suggestions of cover up. This isn't something I made up, simply questions that deserve an answers. And a great deal of what is listed above is fact. It is pure speculation whether or not the Irish would have used the information (presuming that they even knew of it) for political use against one of the wealthiest companies in the world.

    Again I don't see this as disrespectful. This is a topic that attempts to look into some reports about the two ships. However, the Cornishman who published the above quote and then selling (profiting) from Titanic memorabilia, is in my opinion disrespectful.
     
  16. P_Trembath

    P_Trembath The Best

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    Lets look at this logically.
    The suggestion that the wheel was turned in the wrong direction is based on information from a......novel. I have no doubt that the interest in the "disclosure" had little, if any, effect on the sales of this piece of fiction.

    Although quite plausible, it, if true, is contradictory to the main conspiracy theory that the ship was in fact the Olympic, and the owners deliberately set out to sink her. For if this were to be the case, what more perfect a reason for the sinking could have been thought up. "It was the fault of a junior officer, who was confused by the use of 2 different systems of command", "Nothing to do with us guv, honest". Such an excuse would have cleared the company of any blame and enabled it to bury any thoughts that the ship was not what it claimed to be.

    There are many unanswered questions around this tragic event, just as there are around most such events, these do not mean that there is a dire conspiracy lurking underneath to be found. There was in all probability a good deal of cover-up involved, both during the enquiries, and afterwards, but, again, this does not indicate a festering conspiracy.

    Lets look at the what happened. The ship set sail for America, it was sailing far too fast for the documented conditions considering its size and maneuverability. However, It is far too much to attempt to claim that the White Star Line deliberately sent the ship out with the intention of hitting an iceberg, and causing it to sink. the odds of this happening are too great. The ship would have had to have been deliberately steered into the iceberg, but, as the only means they had of locating icebergs accurately in 1912, was to actually see one, the ship would have had to have been zig-zagging all over the place in order to find one. Had that happened, then I am sure that 1 or 2 of those who survived would have mentioned it. Also, the crew would have had to have been in on it, and I think I can safely state that no-one who had any experience of the North Atlantic, would have had anything to do with any action that could have resulted in their coming into extremely close contact with the freezing water that the sea consists of. All would have known that it would be almost certain death. The Captain would have certainly had to have been in on it, so he would have known he was sailing to his death.

    The political/sectarian situation in Belfast, and especially the docks where the ship was built, was dire in the early part of the 20th Century. The Titanic has already been "used" to make political/sectarian points. It has been claimed that there was substandard work carried out by, either, Catholic or Protestant members of the workforce that built the ship. Any hint that a "British" company had pulled such a switch would have been screamed all over the world by the Nationalists in Ireland. As soon as they had any kind of evidence, even if it was 60 or 70 years later they would have jumped at the chance to show the world what sort of people the "British" were. If nothing else, the WolfeTones would have written a song about it.

    No, whilst I appreciate there are, and will always be, unanswered questions, not one of them is evidence of the conspiracy theory that some attempt to portray. I will admit that there may well have been the odd conspiracy after the event by some, attempting to cover up their mistakes or ineptitude, but not the big, world altering conspiracy that some would like to portray. It was just a terrible accident.
     
  17. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    I never suggested that the captain was looking to hit an iceberg, as you say that would be ridiculous. No I don't think for one minute that anything other than engine trouble was probably planned. Perhaps get all aboard off the ship in to safety and then dispose of the ship. In reality the ship hit an iceberg and there was a tragic loss of life.

    I understand what you are saying about the Irish, but remember that these two ships were very nearly identical. In fact the Olympic was altered to look like the Titanic and the Titanic was altered to look like the Olympic. Official records show this. The changes are explained away as improvements to the liners. I suppose what I'm saying is that even though people were working on these ships, it would have been very difficult to tell them apart from the end.
     
  18. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    I often wonder at just how we appear to have returned to the time of Matthew Hopkins and Sir Francis
    Walsingham, too much of what has happened over our lives, is guided by novels, film and television
    scripts; in our so-called intelligence, we have lost the ability to think rational thoughts; may as
    well conclude that the coincidence of 911 and 1911 is a valid thought, absurd, inconclusive, and ill
    considered, in a vastly different age and culture, let alone knowledge, technology, social awareness
    and personal concerns.
     
  19. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    You might be on to a winner there treeve. I never put those dates back to back before lol.
    Seriously though. I agree that a lot of conspiracies are based on probability and hopeful thinking, perhaps even the odd convenient evidence left out. But in this case there are some questions that may or may not have been anything other than coinsidence that should be answered. The Cornishman quotation was from the novel "Good As Gold" that the author claimed came from the family of hoskins... so hardly wild accusation or wreckless writing.
     
  20. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    14th APRIL 1912 - 14th APRIL 2012: time to give them a dignified peace for their souls.
     

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