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The Pope

Discussion in 'Politics religion money and health' started by symons55, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. symons55

    symons55 Moderator Staff Member

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    Found this on another forum, any views?

    So, the Pope is god's representative on Earth and as such is infallible. If all the Popes in history have been infallible they must agree on all moral questions. Unless god has changed his morals and issued revisions to some of them (sadly not in writing, not even on a stone). So it is still ok to burn suspected witches, heretics and athiests. Or stone to death your children if they turn to other religions. ....Nice!
     
  2. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    This infallibility refers to the possibility of error, but we have to remember that the Pope, is a man for all that with errors of judgement, and we should also be mindful of forgiveness being Divine. Another point to remember is that The Church teaches us Free Will. This entails allowing a human to choose for 'himself' as to just how he should believe and conduct himself. This includes, by definition, The Pope. As to burning heretics, suspected witches and atheists; and stoning to death anyone that has chosen a different path, I am not so certain that that is preached as Gospel. I would like to see the EVIDENCE not some garbled statement of fiction.
     
  3. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Slightly off beat to this I have agree that S55's post is real food for thought. Did you know that the UK alone has more than 2,000 registered religions.
    I would like to confess here and now that I am not a follower and don't have any particular religious thoughts.
    I believe in the past and invest in the future. I don't wish to upset anyone when I say I've never met a god and therefore don't believe in what (to me anyway) doesn't exist. I don't believe in the devil either...... I know it's a bit strange coming from a catholic but there you go.
     
  4. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    A few points on your post, it is only food for thought if EVIDENCE is given for the crimes against humanity or at least its intent. Everyone who follows a 'religion' is a catholic, I suspect however that you are refering to 'Roman Catholic'. The proliferation of named religions 'in opposition' to the Roman Catholic has many reasons, not all of them with any religious founding. I have never seen a white rhino, but it does not mean that they do not exist. However, when refering to Goodness and Evil that is where religion comes to the fore. It is in the principles of being Good or Evil, and The Devil personifies the act of evil. It is down to the individual's beliefs as to the origin through fallen angels. There is one train of thought that believes that God is a part of the individual, as Jung, it is the basic good and evil of man. How one conducts one's life is the individual's religion. Ritualised belief is another matter.
     
  5. CHILLYWILLY

    CHILLYWILLY Active Member

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    As quoted in the Bible 'The Gospel of John'.

    "And early in the morning He (Jesus) came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."

    "And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

    I have highlighted Moses as from the same book we are told he brought down the Commandments as laid down by the Lord.

    These are the very same Commandments used by the Catholic church, Church of England as well as I believe Jewish faith.

    The adulteress had not followed a different path but had sinned in the eyes of those who interpreted the law in those days. Her fate would have been to be stoned to death.

    Although I admit that the majority of Christians today would denounce this form of punishment there are many who practice the 'faith' to extremes who would long for it to return.

    There are, I am afraid extremists in every faith, including some who masquarade within the Vatican.
     
  6. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    But I am wide awake with my eyes open and need to have evidence. Its like the old joke... when we speak to god we call it praying... when god speaks to us we call it paranoid schizophrenia.
    I'm asking if such an entity even exists and if so where is the evidence.

    So taking the same scenario I've never thrown myself in front of a speeding car but I know I'll probably be killed if I did.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
  7. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    So, you are an atheistic Dawkins Delusionist, who refuses to accept a God that does not show Himself to be apparent simply because Dawkins says so; logic is refuted by one man stating his opinion without any logic or sound argument. However we are drifting from the discussion as to infallibility.
     
  8. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Then I guess I am. Although I prefer to call myself awake rather than an atheist.... the very word seems to imply I've been bad or something.
     
  9. symons55

    symons55 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll throw a scenario to you all. I was brought up as a Methodist, I will not argue that we all have differant views on religon.
    I was in a discussion recently where it was put to me that in other culters around the world that he was actually coloured. When do you think of it, who said he was white? If he made man in his own image there are white, black, yellow races, gay people etc. why do we automatically assume he is white?
     
  10. Halfhidden

    Halfhidden Untouchable Staff Member Administrator

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    Interesting thought that. Madonna (singing artist that is) was scorn by the church for her cover version of like a prayer. She portrayed Jesus as black. Well in fact he probably would have been considering the area he was born to.
    From my understanding it was the Catholic church that changed his skin colour and also changed his mother to Mary
     
  11. trepolpen

    trepolpen Major Contributor

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    I hope you won't mind if I direct your attention to this link, HH. If the RC Church ever made a pronouncement on Jesus Christ's human physical appearance in a photographic sense I d' be very surprised. Centuries of artists have interpreted and expressed an image of Christ's physical form as with anything else ever artistically interpreted. Since Jesus Christ is to be regarded as God showing Himself or Herself (since God as spirit is not confined to one gender as such), in approachable earthly form to suffer alongside us, this is the nearest you'll get, I think:
    What Christ Looks Like
    Can I also add for Alan that in the history of the Church it has only been when the Pope speaks 'ex cathedra' or from his metaphorical chair of authority that he is to be regarded as infallible. Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope cannot sin in his own personal life or that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, but that when on exceedingly rare occasions, and in the light of an already established tradition of the Church, the Pope makes an official declaration affirming the Church's teaching on an article of faith. Believe it or not but it has only happened about four or five times in the history of the Catholic Church that a papal seal has been placed on such a serious pronouncement of this kind.
     
  12. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    That is an excellent reply to the question. Takes into account all parameters.
     
  13. 46traveller

    46traveller Member

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    Just my view here folks. No offence intended to anyone.

    The Pope as I understand it, is allegedly Gods representative on Earth for the Roman Catholic faith. He also seems to be the CEO or similar of The Vatican State, which refuses to hand over, or allow to be seen certain documents from the vaults, pertaining to The Bible. Simple question why? If they already have the proof that Jesus did exsist in writing or any other form, surely they would have released it many years ago.

    Surely as Gods rep he would also be very concerned about the Paedofile rings operating within the Catholic Church. I don't hear any Papal Decrees about that.

    Whatever Faith you and yours are born into, you have the right to change it, should you decide that it doesn't suit you. How does that work, surely that proves that religion as a whole is based on how you see it personally, and are entitled to make your own mind up when you see that it's basically the same Idol that encompasses all. There have been many Gods through the ages, sorry but they can't all be "The One True God" Too many of 'em, that is of course unless you believe in reincarnation for certain people.

    Personally I like to think of The Sun as something I thank every day, I don't have to worry about going to a special place to thank it, I don't have to drink the blood of Christ, or eat the Body. In fact I feel a whole lot better about not having to toe the lines of religion, I'm literally free. The bonus is, the collection plate that I decide to add to goes towards organizations that need it, 'cos we all know the Church is brilliant at everything, except they just can't handle money, and come begging for more. They're worse than the Banks, in fact I believe that they're all in it together. The City of Londons Square Mile is a seperate state as is The Vatican, strange to say the least.

    Religion IS the main cause, or excuse for War, surely Religous leaders throughout the World would come together and could stop that if it was in their interests. Instead we have terrorists on both sides waging war on innocent people. Check out how much money is used in Defence Budgets, Billions yearly, but it's no longer defence, it's used for attacking the other religions. All men of the cloth are supposed to be "Men Of Peace" well Ian Paisley put that old cherry to bed. Mao Si Tung said "Change must come through the barrel of a gun", lots of religous people seem to be taking his advice right now.

    Now I understand that Religion as a subject for debate is not the lightest of subjects and discussions often end in heated arguments, I do not intend to upset anyone with what I have written, it's a personal thing and these are just my thoughts on the subject. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I respect that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  14. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    Quite .... Enigma put it very well ...
    If you understand or if you don't If you believe or if you doubt There's a universal justice And the eyes of truth Are always watching you.
     
  15. trepolpen

    trepolpen Major Contributor

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    Dear 46 traveller,I won’t thank you for all your points as it means that I feel duty bound to give some reposte though I would rather shut my mouth as that would be the easier option. It is always easier to attack than defend.

    First, as I understand things, there is plenty of proof of Jesus’ existence, historically and traditionally outside whatever you allege remains hidden within the Vatican. There you must ask someone who is a greater authority than I.

    Secondly, there can only be one absolute truth, and interpretation of that ultimate truth only is open to individuals since it depends to what extent they are prepared to accept it. I say that without laying claim to anything other than my own choice.

    Thirdly, everyone is as free as you to choose whether ‘to toe the lines of religion’ or not.

    Fourthly, it is simply not good enough to say ‘’cos we all know the Church is brilliant at everything, except they just can't handle money, and come begging for more.’ I certainly don’t know that. And even if so, Oxfam is just the same and understandably so.

    Religion is in itself NOT the main cause of war, it is mankind who, interpreting it for his own bigoted ends, mistakenly responds violently and falsely in the name of it. In the absence of religion, war is equally, if not more, prevalent and that is clearly evident throughout the world and its history.

    Perhaps the most unjust point you make of all is that serious and ill-founded assertion regarding the Pope that ‘Surely as Gods rep he would also be very concerned about the Paedofile rings operating within the Catholic Church. I don't hear any Papal Decrees about that.’ May I ask you to read the four page insertion I send here since you obviously require a full answer?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  16. 46traveller

    46traveller Member

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    Thanks for that, interesting read.
     
  17. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

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    @trepolpen ... magnificent, well considered and well presented. We should not fall to the whims of the internet garbage that is prevalent in these unenlightened times.
     
  18. 46traveller

    46traveller Member

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    Bit of the aforementioned internet garbage that I find interesting. There is a longer list of previous gods that by coincidence had the same birthday, died in the same way etc. etc. So none of these other gods who were written about extensively existed then, or are these words part of a conspiracy theory dreamt up by those who would belittle the present day beliefs put forward by the church ??

    The selection of December 25 for Christmas

    http://www.atheistwa.org/Reports/Spurgeonexposesgods.html

    The celebrating of the birth of Jesus on 25th December is quite a strange custom and it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible that Jesus ever celebrated His birthday, nor did God command us to celebrate the day of Jesus' birth. The date of His birth is not known for sure, however it is clear from the scriptures that it was not in December. Shepherds did not spend the chilly December nights on the hills in that part of the world, they took their sheep inside to shelter overnight and out again in the morning. The 25th December was a date picked by the Catholic church to appease the pagans who they were trying to convert, but who were not willing to give up their traditional holidays and festivals. Saturnalia was one of the popular Roman pagan festivals of celebration, drunkeness and making merry which ran from the 17th to the 24th of December. Gifts were exchanged on the 23rd and 24th. On the 25th December they would celebrate "The Birth of The Unconquerable Sun."

    The last line has the word Sun as I interpret it to mean, "Gods Sun". Like I say my choice, no missionary work going on here, not looking to convert anybody or sway their beliefs. I'm open to any suggestions that will prove beyond doubt that the present day jesus is the one true god, and all who have gone before (according to history written) are false.

    Trepolpen
    Just as a footnote, you state "Fourthly, it is simply not good enough to say ‘’cos we all know the Church is brilliant at everything, except they just can't handle money, and come begging for more.’ I certainly don’t know that. And even if so, Oxfam is just the same and understandably so".

    Back at Oxfam, director Barbara Stocking gets £90,505 a year,a very large amount. Wouldn’t this money be better spent on feeding the starving? Apparently doing good for others, which I firmly believe in, has had a price put on it.

    Oxfam, the new Tescos ??

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/susanhill/5767413/bullying-is-bullying-whoever-does-it.thtml

     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  19. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

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    From such humble beginnings, I kind of despair about what Christianity has become - in particular the Roman Catholic Church - and the Church of England come to that. The RC Church was born out of the Roman Empire (I think Constantine was the first emperor to convert?) and the mindset seemed to be convert by conquest, following the pattern of the old empire. Out goes the Emperor, in comes the Pope. Ok, not so much now, but in the following centuries, Popes behaved a bit like emperors. A Pope declaring war/going to war - what would Jesus have thought of that?

    I don't believe Jesus was the son of God, but I do believe he existed and was an exceptional man - he had a completely different way of thinking about things. Bearing in mind the time he lived in, I also believe he would have married and had children - there is a line of thought that says to Mary Magdalene, but all that was 'wiped' (if true) when the Bible was compiled. Personally, I think that is more possible than him being the Son of God. I also think if he was alive today, with such a large following and radical thoughts (or rather, what was radical back then) he would be branded a 'terrorist'. Though having said that, I guess he was too during when he was alive. New thoughts + large following = suspicion.

    He preached in open air sermons but during the centuries that followed, we built churches followed by cathedrals. I guess he had no choice but to preach in the open air - but on the other hand, perhaps it would have been his choice anyway. I think being outside has a spiritual connection in itself.

    I can't remember the exact words, but he also preached 'Give away all your possessions and follow me'. What we have now is a church (either RC or CoE) with wealth, power and property. And archaic rituals.

    Just how far removed from the original Christian teachings is that?!

    I might be guilty of generalising here, but I do think the difference between 'Christianity Version 1.0' and whatever 'Version' we have today is miles apart.

    Does God exist? 'God is just a word or a label but I believe 'God' exists within us all and is known as our conscience. Sure, we are taught about what is right and wrong as children, but I think a lot of it is instinctual. Our conscience guides us on what is the right thing to do and the right way to behave.

    What is the point of a conscience? Wouldn't we be better off without one as just did as we pleased? I don't think so, I think our conscience adds the spiritual side to our existence. When you've ever been about to do something you know is wrong, don't you find your conscience 'speaks' to you?

    It's through my conscience I feel connected to 'God' (or whatever you'd like to call it) along with the beauty of Nature. I've never felt the need for an organised church for my spiritual needs.
     
  20. 46traveller

    46traveller Member

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    Excellent post, "Let Your Conscience Be Your Guide". Agreed.........
     

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