Tescopoly

[Halfhidden]

My particular gripe is one of a long series of gripes about our dwindling countryside, the free areas upon which to walk

But this is hypocritical of me if I agree... after all I live in a house that was once countryside and someone probably also enjoyed a walk along the fields that are now houses.
Development is a necessity, although I agree more control and better understanding of nature needs to be pushed in to the development businesses.
But to be fair a lot of what you have mentioned is part of our ever changing social demand on both our town and environment. Regeneration can happen when we rely on to few things, or as I said businesses didn't diversify.
Diversity isn't a magic word... it's a fundamental part of business. Those businesses who don't utilise it will sooner or later end in trouble.

Here's an example for you.
Lentern
The Butchers started in 1974 and traded well until the younger son Simon took the business over. He tried to compete with the supermarkets and came off bad. in 2005 Ian took the business back as the bailiffs moved in.
Ian can to my office and we spoke about diversity. Today the business is better than it has ever been. Why? because they offered the same product but at a better quality, higher price and marketed the business and recognised their true market. businesses isn't just about having a product and selling it on.

So what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe the town has had it's heart ripped out.... really we have more shops open in the centre of town that we did in the 70's and we have more supermarkets... right?

 

[tabtab13]

It's all a question of balance really. I'm at a far end of the scale - if it was up to me, all those in favour of nature and a more natural, simplistic way of life could keep their houses in our area. Everyone else who disagreed would have their houses torn down, be forced to move away and the whole area would be a gigantic nature reserve. There would be plenty of land for us to keep animals and grow our own food. No money of course to be able to buy 84" tv sets - but so what?

Seriously though, I think what is getting people's backs up here is that Tesco, rightly or wrongly, have a reputation for expanding their business empire wherever there is an opportunity to do so and they have the power and wealth to be able to do this. Like a lot of companies of that size, if you want to disagree with their actions, you'll be faced with hot shot lawyers who will make it impossible to fight them in court - unless you happen to be extremely very wealthy indeed.

Some might call Tesco a great business success, or possibly the greatest business success seen in a long time. All depends on which side of the fence you sit on. Ok, they may want to regenerate brown sites if they can, but if they can't, green sites will do just as nicely as well. Of course, other supermarkets are guilty of this too, but Tesco in particular seem to be hardcore when it comes to this.

 

[treeve]

Diversification only means that in the end it is all dog eat dog, and no one wins; there was a time when shops respected each others' trade and stuck to what they did best; now they all end up selling the same old garbage; I cannot find anything that has any use in this town anymore, obviously on the food side, there is plenty. With notable exceptions it is the same old same old. Look at photographs and I see specialist products by specialis producers. Now it is any old thing brought in from Lord knows where. Diversification kills. No one benefits at all. It has happened on the international market. No one specialises. No one puts that extra ooomph into a product - what an old employer used to call 'crappola' is what we get. Grown, Gathered, Packed at low cost, shipped thousands of miles, for some faceless giant company exploiting all in its path. In its wake is the wreckage of society and its environment.

 

[Halfhidden]

@tabtab13
I have already said that I'm aware that Tesco has gained a reputation for some unorthodox businesses tac tics but i wanted to talk about Penzance particularly. Right now they haven't been guilty of anything other than adaptation to demand in businesses level and after all this is a crucial part of businesses.

Morrisons extended the deliver bay and storage area in 2009... nothing mentioned on here about that. They did this because they wanted to be able to extract products quicker from the delivery lorries.

This is not one of those situations where a stereotype sticker works for me and here's why:
I said that Tesco had purchased the land and had the right to develop it..... they do
But they have to apply for planning permission.... that involves the public or at least the residents.

They propose (is the word I used) to maintain the brook and this would be part of their conditions of use.

Has nobody read the plan's I put up... or has everyone assumed that Tesco has some sort of automatic right to planning permission.
Look at the plans again.
As for fighting the supermarket.... well if that has to be done then why can't we? We beat Cornwall Council recently on the destruction of the harbour (sponsored by Tesco extra concrete .... only joking) ... how, because we united in a common cause.

I still don't get this debate... help me out what am I missing here.... or am I the only unbiased poster?

 

[tabtab13]

I think diversification in moderation is a good thing. Taking Lentern's as an example they have been selling their own pies and sausage rolls for a while now. Probably something all butchers did in times gone past. No disrespect to Rowe's or any other baker in PZ, but I know Lentern's meat is good, therefore their pies and sausage rolls will be good - and they are. But if they diversified into such things as pans to cook meat in, I probably wouldn't buy them there. Or if they started selling veg to go with the meat they sold, I would still go to somewhere like Thornes to get veg there. Trouble with the big supermarkets is they have diversified so much, they no longer just sell food, you can buy almost anything there - to the cost of the smaller specialist shops where on the whole, quality is very high as that's the only selling point they have left, but unfortunately more expensive. The choice is yours - you get what you pay for.

 

[Halfhidden]

Diversification only means that in the end it is all dog eat dog, and no one wins

That's rubbish... if that was so then Lentern would be struggling to trade and that is not the case. In fact they are stronger now than ever. they employ more staff than ever. The same supermarkets are around.... in fact more competition.

I cannot find anything that has any use in this town anymore, obviously on the food side, there is plenty. With notable exceptions it is the same old same old.

Don't you shop at Amazon? that's further out of town than Eastern Green. My point is that shopping has changed us all. Blame it on what you will but don't bring the old chestnut it was better in my day because it is now moved on.

what an old employer used to call 'crappola' is what we get. Grown, Gathered, Packed at low cost, shipped thousands of miles, for some faceless giant company exploiting all in its path.

Is that Amazon again?

really I'm not trying to be confrontational and that is far from my intention.... I love a good debate but let's look at the local fact here.
Is Tesco or any other supermarket responsible for the destruction of our town and if so how?
Is Tesco responsible for hundreds of years of closed shops in town?
Is Tesco known locally for destruction?

As I said earlier... I'm not getting direct answers just excuses why we should hate what we alll need one way or another.

 

[Halfhidden]

@tabtab13

But if they diversified into such things as pans to cook meat in, I probably wouldn't buy them there. Or if they started selling veg to go with the meat they sold, I would still go to somewhere like Thornes to get veg there.

excellent remark because that's exactly what Simon did with the business and why it failed. Business is always changing. It's like going on holiday, you get a map out and plan the destination, on the way you have roadworks so need to plan a way around your troubles in order to get to the final destination....

now I know that there are a lot of products in a supermarket and that the old chestnut can be used that local shops can't compete... take a look a Thornes! fruit and veg cheaper (by a long, long way) Milk 54p cheaper!

So I'm still convinced that people have a preconception that the supermarket is destroying local business.... it's not! Look at Morrisons magazine section.... we still have Martins in Alverton Street, W H Smiths and countless other newsagents and corner shops in and around town... so if it were true that the supermarket did such a good job that it destroyed business then why do so many shops still sell the same products.
We have a demand in Penzance and we have to face that fact.
Lentern and Thorne are two businesses who have adapted and become better businesses because of it... Incidentally, both businesses have invested heavily in them selves only recently.

 

[treeve]

Post #46 needs some kind of clarification; my own personal situation is one that I would not wish on anyone, damaged back, arthritis in every joint with complications in the nervous system and sinovitis, compressed nerves resulting in nigh immobility at times, or vertigo or both, being alone means there is no pleasure or need to visit restaurants or public houses, shopping is a day to day affair, otherwise I would never go out. Shopping is via the Alverton shop or Lidls, rarely I get into town. Buying fresh food is not practical, since half of it goes off and is thrown away. To that end, I shop in Iceland. Other aspects of life are only to be found by ordering, and that involves two visits to town, which in turn means more pain and effort, so I order from Amazon, it also saves me having to carry the object. The point about shopping having changed us all is a statement on its head. I say NONE of this to encourage any form of sympathy, it is a fact.

 

[Halfhidden]

Excellent points indeed treeve. As I said I mentioned it because as you have just rightly pointed out everyone has a different situation that demands a different approach and way of shopping.
As I mentioned above I'm not trying to pick on anyone but I will continue the debate if I'm fuelled.
I need evidence that the town is destroyed by supermarkets and I'm just not seeing it. I personally think that people today don't really look at facts enough and conclusions are jumped to all too often.
I mentioned that the town is better off now that we have supermarkets compared with the half empty town back in the 70's and 80's and it is. We have more supermarkets now because we have a bigger population. More people gets us a better local economy.
So is it fair to say that supermarkets may well have played a part in making the town better?

Anyway.... I'm as guilty as the rest for going off topic here.
I still think the expansion of Tesco is modest in comparison to what they could have proposed and as the brook is not going to be disturbed in the sense of developed and/or moved then I see that as a good compromise.

 

[BayOfPlenty]

@BoP. If you are right and Tesco will abandon the brook and area because it does not bring in any money... and or cost money to maintain then why are the bushes in both Branwell Lane and the surrounds maintained so well? This is their land and responsibility surely if you're right then these too would have been abandoned.
But they haven't!

That's a specious argument, HH; the Branwell Lane area is maintained because it is the access area - Tesco are business-savvy enough to realise that customers aren't going to hack their way through shrubbery to get to the frozen foods section!
As for being anti-Tesco, I've already stated quite clearly that I'm not. I simply do not agree with this expansion. Let's not forget that we live in an area far more dependent upon tourism than upon supermarkets. If we're happy to cover everything in concrete and tarmac, who's going to want to come here? Would you want a holiday in Slough (for example)? That's an overstated example, I know, but the principle is the same.
As for having defeated Cornwall Council in the harbour case - are you certain that's been achieved?

 

[treeve]

In all of this, it is curious not to have seen an argument in support directly for this, based on the times in which I have pointed out different values; namely the entire covering in of Chyandour Cove and Brook, and the disappearance of the road bridge (c1840), Let alone the land reclamation that received such acclaim for agricultural purposes, which has now been turned into an industrial sprawl and entrance to the town. This commenced with Trythogga and the Smelting Works, let alone the Tannery. The town just before the time I earlier mentioned was slaughterhouses, tanneries, an open sewer ... I am quite conscious of our development and history, having studied Town Planning and New Town Design, particular references were Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage, This is what I mean when referring to vision. A half of the Chandour village disappeared when the road was widened in the name of progress then and in connection with the railway ...

 

[tabtab13]

Let's not forget that we live in an area far more dependent upon tourism than upon supermarkets. If we're happy to cover everything in concrete and tarmac, who's going to want to come here? Would you want a holiday in Slough (for example)? That's an overstated example, I know, but the principle is the same.

I totally agree Bop. Tourists who see brochures, web sites etc of Penzance see all the quaint images of the town and surrounds. You can imagine their faces as they drive through Long Rock and Eastern Green and see what an industrial estate the area is already.

This is not an argument against Tesco as such - if Morrison's owned the current Tesco site and wanted to expand, my feelings would be exactly the same. I seem to remember that there was talk about Tesco's expansion plans around about the time Sainsbury's announced they were after the heliport site in The Cornishman. I still think this is more of a case of crushing the opposition more than a bigger Tesco store being beneficial for the town. If Tesco has owned the land for a long time, why did they not expand before now?

We have 3 Co-Ops, 2 Tesco's and a Morrison's here - with Sainsbury's on the way - if that is still going ahead. Putting Co-Op to one side, the big boys are fighting among themselves for a bigger slice of the pie - a turf war, if you like. Unfortunately, it's our turf they are fighting over. My main issue is the size of the car parks that go along with these stores. I don't know all the reasons why the heliport is being sold, but for me, the helicopter has always been an iconic image and part of Penzance. Even after all these years, I still get a thrill seeing one take off or land if I'm in the area. Ok, that's slightly off point, but instead of it we'll have yet another supermarket. Won't all this mean the ratio between size and number of supermarkets (in the sense of the land they cover) and the local population is out of balance - i.e. we will have reached and passed the satuation point?

 

[Halfhidden]

@ BoP

That's a specious argument, HH; the Branwell Lane area is maintained because it is the access area - Tesco are business-savvy enough to realise that customers aren't going to hack their way through shrubbery to get to the frozen foods section!

Now you're getting the point. Take a look at the proposal and you'll see that the extension to the left that over looks the brook and Ponsendane is a cafe. So thank you for your quote... yes they are likely to look after the land.

Let's not forget that we live in an area far more dependent upon tourism than upon supermarkets. If we're happy to cover everything in concrete and tarmac, who's going to want to come here?

So are you saying we should concentrate on increasing tourism and then not give the facilities for the extra population to buy basic food and groceries. Surely that's ludicrous. Forgive me for thinking that this is not a good move. Come to Penzance on holiday and bring your own food.

The Harbour development was truly a monstrosity and would destroy more than it achieved... The Tesco development isn't anything like the same league.


@ treeve

covering in of Chyandour Cove and Brook, and the disappearance of the road bridge (c1840), Let alone the land reclamation that received such acclaim for agricultural purposes, which has now been turned into an industrial sprawl and entrance to the town.

You're talking about the past again we cannot judge the future from the past we can only let it guide us.
The land fill has been going on for many years and is not the responsibility of Tesco. There is no point adding smoke screens to a simple development that benefits the brook and still nobody can really tell me that the brook will be worse off in real terms....
So you're dead against the destruction and land fill in the area. Well then BoP wants us to concentrate on building up tourism and he has a good point. It seems that if you had your way the railway wouldn't have been built, the road wouldn't have been widened and it would be difficult for tourists to get to the town in the first place. You cant have your cake and eat it there must be a balance and that's all I'm asking of you to take a look at. Will the brook be so badly out of balance that the construction shouldn't take place and tesco should put up or shut up? If so they'll just close down and move.... what then of the land.... leave it, dig it over?

@tabtab13

Tesco store being beneficial for the town. If Tesco has owned the land for a long time, why did they not expand before now?

probably because too many people live in the past and have closed minds.

So basically the topic has now moved on to tourism. Well as I said let's encourage more and more tourist and not give them the facilities to enjoy their stay.
You can't deny that the supermarkets are under pressure already. Try shopping in August and I bet you'll be in a queue for ages... what about Christmas?

I still don't get what your all trying to say unless it

Let's all live in the past and hate supermarkets just because

Sorry boys you're going to have to do better than this to change my mind on this....
Good debate mind you, nice to see some raw passion and good points brought to light

 

[treeve]

Precisely the point I was making when looking at the industrial vandalism that was started way bak, precisely the point I was making regarding the improvements to the town way back; I was agreeing and underlining the improvements made to date, however I reserve my points about this being a last refuge, and I mean refuge. You can look to the past for guidance as to the future, in fact it is essential, mistakes are not new by a long wavy chalk line. There is nothing actually new under the sun, it is just in a different cloak with a new flag.

 

[Halfhidden]

@treeve what precisely is being destroyed here? All along that part of the brook is Tesco car park. All they intend to so is extend the store on to the car park and put a new car park on the field. Is that industrial vandalism?

mistakes are not new by a long wavy chalk line

precisely what mistake is being undertaken here by Tesco?
The brook is not being developed and as for noise from the car park this is unfounded as the car park is already next to the brook but will be on the other side. The brook will have to be maintained because the new cafe over looks the entire area. BoP kindly pointed out that they are likely to look after the area to keep their image up.

As I've mentioned many times in this thread... I will not stand by and watch vandalism, needless waste of green land but I just see that from this particular project.

I'm off to a photo shoot.... back in a hour or so

 

[tabtab13]

@ HH - No, what I'm saying is that I think we have reached Supermarket saturation as it is , and with a new Sainsbury's, we certainly will have, if not exceeded it. Ok, it might be inconvenient for two months over the summer and a couple of weeks over Christmas having to queue, but that's a small amount of time compared to the rest of the year. The problem is you give these guys a foothold, but it's never enough. A case in point, you already mentioned that Morrison's expanded the area they originally had. No doubt in time, Sainsbury's would do the same. How long before all three butt up against each so it's literally wall to wall supermarkets in that area?

Let's not forget these guys are in the business of selling and their PR and advertising guys are well sharp enough and persuasive enough in arguing that what they sell is better or cheaper than their competitors, so it's 'a boon for the local community' (wherever that might be) that their store should be bigger than anyone else's. Comments have been made about living in the past - I'm thinking about the future.

 

[BayOfPlenty]

So are you saying we should concentrate on increasing tourism and then not give the facilities for the extra population to buy basic food and groceries. Surely that's ludicrous. Forgive me for thinking that this is not a good move. Come to Penzance on holiday and bring your own food.

Where have I said that? My point is, I do not believe this expansion to be necessary. Certainly, there are queues at busy times - maybe a good time to take on some extra staff (the magic "jobs" word again). How much of a holiday would someone want to spend in a supermarket anyway?
As for August & Christmas - isn't it the large retailers who seem to bring Christmas forward a little more each year? The two will run together before much longer.

 

[BayOfPlenty]

BoP kindly pointed out that they are likely to look after the area to keep their image up.

No, I didn't - I stated that business concerns would look after such areas only while it is expedient to do so.

 

[Halfhidden]

@BoP

As for August & Christmas - isn't it the large retailers who seem to bring Christmas forward a little more each year? The two will run together before much longer

has that got anything to do with this extension proposal?

So let me get this right boys... you're now saying at peak times like Christmas and Summer just put up with it? So as tourism increases the tourists should just put up with it?

How much of a holiday would someone want to spend in a supermarket anyway?

My point exactly... Hardly any if they can but they will at the moment as the population grows the shops will become busier and therefore queues will increase.
So I have a point... what's the solution then?
The population increases and we don't develop and expand... Somebody put their hand up with the solution because I want to hear this

@tabtab13

@ HH - No, what I'm saying is that I think we have reached Supermarket saturation as it is

really?
If that were true then there wouldn't be enough people shopping in the supermarkets and they would close down. You all keep telling me what a bunch of greedy self profiting money making machines supermarkets are.... so it makes sense to me if there was no money or demand the supermarket would close down and move on.

OK time for some facts:
At the start of the 19th (1801) centuary Penzance had a population of 2,248. population then climbed to 4,888 (1931) then 5,545 (1951) - thus more than doubling in 30 years. Now as far as I know this trend has continued and the population of Penzance is 21,000. That is a fact that non of you want to accept. The town is growing and the infrastructure has to grow with it... an important part of that is the ability to buy groceries.
Now I'm aware that the figures above aren't clinical because the boundaries changed in the 80's but you cannot deny that the town is growing.
Don't forget we are also talking about the growth of other towns and villages who also shop here. St Just, Pendeen, Sennen I can go on. This isn't just about Penzance.

So my question to each of you is if I accept that you are right and we should deny any more supermarkets the ground to either expand or build and the town and area continues to grow at the rate it has... what will happen?
Answers please on a back of a self addressed envelope...
Still not convinced...I think the Tesco expansion is a good thing

 

[Halfhidden]

Originally Posted by Halfhidden
BoP kindly pointed out that they are likely to look after the area to keep their image up.



No, I didn't - I stated that business concerns would look after such areas only while it is expedient to do so.​

It doesn't matter how exactly it was worded. You know now that it is likely to be maintained because it will impact on the store. My point is still very valid.