This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Picture Penzance is free to join and use. So why not join our community. As a member you can upload images, add comments, participate in our contests and connect with like minded people.
    All the best,
    Halfhidden (founder member)

Sign up for free today
Membership Is Free
No Adds
Members Only Areas
And lots More!

CLICK HERE

Getting 'out of it'

Discussion in 'Politics religion money and health' started by tabtab13, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Following some banter over a recently uploaded spider picture, it got me thinking - what's the reason behind why we take drugs? Ancient shaman used them for spiritual reasons, hippies in the sixties extolled the use of LSD to 'free the mind'. Drug references are found in literature throughout the centuries. And just to clarify, what I'm talking here is drug taking for non medicinal purposes.

    And we're not alone in this action. Some elephants will eat fermenting apples until they get drunk. Some monkeys will finish off unwanted drinks in tropical holiday resorts - they will actually leave those containing just fruit juice, preferring those that have alcohol in them. Another species of monkey will actively search out a certain type of millipede, rub the insect over its body as this will make it release a chemical on which the monkey then gets 'high'. Cats on the whole love Catnip and will lie around in a 'glazed state' after rolling around in it.

    Why do some people (and some animals) actively take drugs - is it a genetic thing as in some scientists believe some individuals are more prone to becoming alcoholics - their desire for it is part of their genetic make up?

    Leaving aside manufactured chemicals, why is it that some plants have chemicals within them that will alter your state of mind? Is it just by chance or a by-product of their make up? Without wanting to get overly religious, are these plants here for a reason, a catalyst to open up our minds to greater things, whether spiritually or just for the next evolutionary step in our brain's capacity and awareness? I guess that could answer one of the reasons why mankind does it, but why would animals do it too?

    Sadly, a lot of people use drugs simply for 'getting out of it', as a means to escape or blot out everyday life.

    What does everyone else think? I'm not looking for 'drugs are good/drugs are bad' replies, more of a why you may think they occur naturally in some plants, etc. Is it just the way things are, simply coincidence and part of the plants' chemical make up - or is it something deeper, something we've yet to fully understand?
     
  2. BayOfPlenty

    BayOfPlenty Member

    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    3
    I really can't comment on any of this, as I have no experience of the subject matter (as I'm sure Halfhidden will confirm!)
     
  3. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ah - what I'm looking for here is not so much who takes drugs or what experiences people have had after taking drugs. More of a why do some plants have chemicals in them that effect us? Is there a reason - or is it just the way things are?

    We in the modern world abuse drugs or just take them for the fun of it. The more 'primitive' societies or peoples have a different approach - they still have a knowledge that on the whole, we have lost. So let's say, in simplistic terms, they divide plants into three groups. Plants to eat, plants that are used for medicinal purposes and plants that will alter how their bodies or minds work.

    It's almost as though we have been 'provided' with this. When we get hungry, we can eat vegetables. If we get hurt, we can use some plants for a cure or to ease pain. So that leaves the third group - those that can alter our state of mind. Primitive (and ancient) people use these in highly ritualistic or religious ceremonies.

    So I'm just wondering if 'some greater being' whether it be God, The Creator, The Great Architect or any other spiritual entity you can think of or believe in has done all this for a purpose? Has the third group of plants I've mentioned been 'given' to us for a purpose and is this purpose a key to either see or understand the great mystery that is life, or even to 'communicate' with God, etc.

    I'm a great believer in lost knowledge and ancient wisdom - I think in the modern world we have lost so much. I love films such as 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - it doesn't matter if such films have any truth in them or not - it's the concept that grips me.

    So my question is, in this modern world, are we too busy getting off our heads on drugs for the hell of it - or are they here in natural forms and we've either lost or forgotten the reason or explanation why?
     
  4. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    As far as plants are concerned ...
    On a rudimentary level, plants have evolved a 'protection/allure' system. They either need animals to take the seed and arrange to have it planted elsewhere, thus allowing the parent plant sufficient room to spread and survive, or it needs to arrange a suitable softening drug, or even an intoxicant. The degree can be arranged to be taken to the point of death if 'needed'. There is no question that the plant achieves some knowledge or reasoning or choice system of just why and how much, no little notes passed from plant to plant; that ability is passed on in the seed. It works, the policy continues, it does not, the plant dies anyway.

    Then there is the matter of the chemical process by which the plants structure is formed, colour and form, local conditions that encourage leaf growth, or other conditions that encourage petals, colours, cell structure, height, spread, absoption of rainfall, water spread to the roots, root spread, base form to encourage that root spread and hold. It all generates a different structure of chemical content. And not a knowing reason within the plant itself. If it works the plant survives, if it does not, the plant dies....

    As to what effect and reasoning is involved on an animal/spiritual basis, that is another story.........
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  5. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Next Act, ape/earlyman, before discovery of just how many deer it can kill with said femur that has Also Sprach Zarathustra music inside it, the part where separate development began.
    'Rudimentary Ug type language ... Thinks .... I am hungry, fed up with eating seeds and grass stuff. Wonder what that tastes like?.'
    'Hmm, not bad.' A learning process begins on a group level. 'Gug didn't like that red stuff on the upright tall thing, it took too much trouble to get it, and he damn near broke his neck getting it.' 'Sagu, ate loadsa the yellow stuff near the river'.. 'As to that bunch of greedy nerds on the hill, they keep all those small berries to themselves, helluva job getting them.' Finding foods in one state or another, with natural fires, naturally boiling water and so on, brought about a learning process of how to cook, what, when and how.

    A few million years later comes the 'I know how to cook - wonder if that is any good?' ...... gradually comes another learning process. 'Those bods all died when they ate that, they were decidedly ill when they drunk that.' ...... Then the awakening, the real ASZ moment, down in the place feared by all, monsters lurk, sits a man, who has tried to burn grasses, he gets juices from plants to make his painting, he has learned to record what he sees, some of the juices are no good to use, others, are finger lickin' good, but they are perhaps drinkable, .... Hey, what's this? We now call them entoptic images, but to them they were real. We sit down and meditate, or in a half sleep state, occasionally if lucky see the same images; we have experiences that they will never have had. They had experiences that we will never have. Thankfully. Their dream images were wild and vivid - because of the narcotics. It became the world seen by the 'Shamen', and some of those substances were volatile, dangerous, killers. They gained a kind of 'immunity' as other normals died, and they survived. It made them spirit world people, dreamers of the earth.

    In this 'modern' environment, everything is watered down, natural events are all explainable by this or that 'logy', animals no longer stalk the brush looking for a tasty child or old man. We still have the images stored in our deep subconsciousness, explained by Jungian analysis. An ancient story of Vlad the impaler only has its terrors when seen in the latest movie of the vampire myth. Fairy tales are dismissed, the ogres of the ancient terrors, the great and horrific monsters of Legend and the Id become fearsome creations in Lord of The Rings. Within us are the means to defeat these, if we make peace with ourselves and be strong.....

    But .... there is more .....
     
  6. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Before taking to drugs, there is the small subject of Man and his collective psyche.

    Reaching a few thousand years ago, after three million years of soil bashing and facing various odds of catching the meat for the spit (and 4 and half billion years of this world cooling down let alone some itinerant planet colliding with it). Something happens. Wandering around, chancing it, dragging a tent suddenly is considerd a fool's game. Cultivation and Husbandry, that requires knowledge. Knowledge is Power.

    There is an innate need to tribalise, to have a leader and a medicine man. Catering for the desire to be at one with each other and be at one with our world and its creator.

    For many there is a basic requirement that asks, what is it all about? What is it all for? Many dismiss it all as a natural phenomena, forming no attachments. I pity the Dawkins of life.

    Seeing the endless seasons passing, the astologers plotted the heavens, adding mythology and dimension to the space which we occupy. Man looked at the stars and wondered what was his place in this gigantic enigma (not that he knew any Greek), but groups of 'them that studied and were leaders' either were given The Word, or devised it, around the world, came up with that bastion of hope for Man, in his cycle of birth, life and death.

    A set of rules to control living and dying. Tribalism has continued in varying senses into modern living. One organisation or another. Tick a box. Mayan, Existentialist, Christian, Moslem, Coptic, Bantu, Autralian Aborigine, it rises through Nationalism, and decends into human 'star' worship.

    They all seek something to varying degrees. Answers to their own being. It splits into type of car, where a person lives, what they consume. Labels. For so many labels are not enough.

    In all of this confusion, nothing is actually clear.

    Man's path is one path or another lead by those who are later prescribed as having clay feet. There are those that see their own way and their own creed, as set out by people who clearly do not have feet of clay. Basically Man is either easily led appealing to basic weaknesses and vulnerabilities, or he/she makes personal realisations and assertions that make him or her an outsider, suspected and derided.....
    Are you with us, or against us ... Well neither actually ....

    and now .... The Prologue ..... Cool, Man, Hey ...... Yeah ....
     
  7. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    The Ultimate Trip ...

    As the strains of Richard Strauss fill our consciousness, 2001 the Ultimate Trip, ironically the postulation that Man is a Creation of Interstellar Manipulation with an almost divine monolithic slab (the gift of understanding and human logic) is fanfared by a piece that exemplifies the teachings of Zoroaster in its monotheisticism, the
    struggle between truth and lie, good and evil. Over the last couple of thousand years is the knowledge developed and learned of what plants to cultivate, and what dose is safe. Wine and alcohol is now a science, the Biblical division of fermented and non-fermented wines has separated into alcohol and juices. Man has learned of the
    materials that take him to other places. Man has also confused leader and medicine man. Confused hero with image. The international disease that is striking the world is Gullibility. It is on the news, it is in the papers, it is on the internet ... therefore it is True. All stable ground is flawed. Man now has in generality followed false prophets, dismissing Faith and Hope. Man is on his own, if he dismisses all foundation for his own life and death. The disillusioned soul seeks other comforts and other trails of perceived happiness, which are all illusions in themselves. 'There must be something better than this' ... still torments the soul. First seen as a medicine, ladies carried phials in there reticure. Artists gained succour and inspiration, the need was fed through opium dens, through abuse and domination, to disrupt and to wage war. Political gain was to be made, controls, destruction of foreign lands. We are now in the massive machine lost in its intricacies and grip of the cogs. Man is easy meat for drug barons and the commercial powers of advertising, in their offensive to create wealth they attack the young, they take a man and make him reliant on the product they sell, they own him/her. Sooner or later, destruction. But no matter, more on the way, more potential victims, more drugs. Any idea that the mind altering drug and mind altering mind has anything to do with a symbiosis from God's Holy Plan, falls into the Abyss, this is a war of money. Power begets power, it is distorted, it invades other areas and corrupts. It is Man that has decided which drugs to cultivate and for what purpose. It is Man that harvests it and force feeds it, when the hit is made, another victim of circumstance is born. What's your poison, man? Echoes of one man's meat is another's poison reflects our own individuality of choices and bio-chemical 'make up'. We are all different, but use of 'recreational drugs' is irresponsible and kills dignity, if not life. In this sense Man is His Own Destiny.
    Wake up to Reality.
    Be Aware, Think.
    Hedonism is no answer, it is a way of bypassing the pain that is self created by Man. We are unable to face the demons, flat on our backs in a blind stupour.
    To learn the difference between enjoyment and being conned out of pocket.
    Stop being a sucker and seek real succour.
     
  8. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Excellent posts treeve, though I am struggling to find an answer within them to my 'three plant theory' and are those that have mind altering properties (in particular) here for a reason and are they 'here' for a particular reason, such as to enable us to reach a higher spiritual level, 'communicate with God' - or what ever people want to call it?

    The ancients regarding such plants as a means to 'travel' from the plane that exists which we call 'reality' to other planes - planes of a higher level.

    Do you think they stumbled across such plants through centuries of trial and error, or do you think such plants exist for a specific reason? In the sense of say, you are given a locked box, and to find out and understand what is inside the box, you need to search and find the key to open it?

    Thinking about it, I cannot think of any religious text that says 'eat this plant and it will show you this or that, etc'. Perhaps you've heard or come across some reference? So perhaps I'm looking for a reason or explanation that just isn't there.

    On the other hand, perhaps some reference did exist once, and has been lost through the passage of time? Either lost or censored at the time.

    Oooo ... Lost texts and ancient wisdom now lost - that's the sort of thing that's just right up my street (see my reference to 'Raiders of the Lost Ark') ........
     
  9. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    I alluded to the two wines of Biblical times, an argument often postulated as to 'well Jesus made wine, didn't he?' Point is that 'wine' makes for difficult linguistics. That was how alcoholic wine was discovered, through natural fermentation, yeast lives on fruit skin. They KNEW how to crush a grape and preseve the juice for rabbinic approval, as well as making it for general debauchery. In a nutshell the proper translation depended on its context. I seem to remember it had something to do with 'oinos', however, that has only related to the Hebrew and then the Greek world (and that drinker ended up unable to walk, called him Dodgy Knees or something like that, said to live in a barrel) - the Greeks were partial to the odd drop or two, and could not fathom why it was that one minute the Law said its narsty stuff, the next, that drinking it was ok. Two worlds, two experiences, two social bases. The point with wine (fermented) was that it lowered inhibitions, reduced social order and mutual respect, severing spiritual connection with God. I have seen no scripture relating to other substances, but I have to assume the same respose would be forthcoming. Awareness of the rest of the world or its peoples was rather low, in fact nil. Move out to Peru, or the Pacific, no inhibitions at all, they possibly found that the odd narcotic or two helped them through the daily chore of ritualistic disembowelment (it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it ... next! ). I believe there is no matching defined order of plants other than that set down by Man's own cultivations. Any properties they have acquired is by some aspect genetic development coupled with environmental circumstances, with the bonus of the intervention of Man. The Apocryphal Book of Germanic Supremacy was not included in my edition of the King James. Closness to God was not achieved through getting stoned in that fashion.
     
  10. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    ps ... since you mention food and other stuff, will stop and 'do a bit of reading' -
    the replies being 'off my head' ::6:
     
  11. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ok - how's this for an idea? Although first off, I should say that I'm not overly religious, I don't believe that God is an old man with a beard who lives in the skies, so any references I am making to 'God' are of a general reference point of something greater, something spiritual (for want of a better word), something intangible. Creation of the universe has been explained to a certain extent by scientists, but there are still so many, many unanswered questions. To find the right answer, first of all you need to ask the right question - and we're not there yet.

    Ok, so what I'm thinking is we were possibly 'given' certain plants by 'God'. A sort of 'here you go, this is a coca plant, When you get tired, chew on a few of it's leaves and that will give you the strength to carry on. Here is a poppy, when you are in pain, a little of it will help ease it. And when you want to 'talk' to me, here is a mushroom, the bark of a tree (as used in Africa), a marijuana plant, etc etc'.

    And what's happened is, Mankind being what we are, has gone 'Mmmm - if I add this and that to the coca leaves - I make cocaine and it's much, much stronger and pleasurable too - no need to talk to 'God' - I'm having too much 'fun' and I feel great".

    Or, "If I take the poppy, add this and that to it, I can make something that not just eases my pain, I get something that makes me feel so good that I'm not worried about the pain anymore - or anything else come to that."

    Or "If I analyse what it is that gives me the visions etc from mushrooms and tree bark, again, I can make that much stronger too - to the point where my brain melts."

    "And that mellow, reflective mood I get when I smoke or eat marijuana is ok - but if I cross pollinate it and experiment, I can make that much stronger as well. Who needs to think or speak to 'God' when you're that zonked out."

    All a bit of an Adam and Eve and the apple situation - something else I don't believe in - but it's meant to be a parable of sorts (if that's the right word), isn't it? Possibly 'God' gave us these plants for a specific reason, and we've just gone "Well that's ok, but look what 'fun' we can having by playing around with them". So in essence, lost the true purpose for what they were intended for. Assuming of course, they were given to us .....
     
  12. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Would you Adam and Eve it?!!

    As I have pointed out, the time scales do not fit, the evolutionary scales do not fit, the pure numbers of different specie will only result after the endless permuations spun of the roulette wheel in something being right and cool. I do not believe in the white haired old man, somewhat akin to Jupiter/Zeus. As I have discussed elswhere in thread, the creation is something beyond the spaced out theories of submathematical quantum physics, where the best they can come up with is the seriously flawed 'Big Bang Theory'. It still does not get anywhere near creation. It only postulates an impossible interval scenario. Whatever Order created our Universe, allowed permutations that allowed the correct environment for cellular growth to begin. It also created a Universe that defies physical possibility for its own existence. Matter cannot be created out of Nothingness. It can only be transmuted. What was it before ... it was without form and devoid? I have also discussed the Genesis scenario, particularly for its duality of narrative and its delayed writing over thousands of years. It is not as if a hermit saw a blinding light, the Voice came from the Heavens and said hermit religiously wrote it all out in 4,000 BC.
    Neither was the trial and error anything more or less than I discussed on this thread. I do not see an ordered plan, otherwise we will have to conclude that iron and carbon were placed in the rocks that make up a part of this planet as being selectively added in order that we may roll steel and make girders. We have the constituents of the Burger King and Diet Coke here, it was a gift from the Maker??? Sorry, I do not buy it.

    See this ... http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/gen001.htm
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  13. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Right, heads down for a bit of Clean Diet.
    I hasten to add that I do not have a problem or complaint with this Kosher List, it is here as a discussion as to approved and disapproved foods in relation to the possibility that food or drugs were placed here specifically for Man to discover their benefits or otherwise.

    Leviticus, chapter 11
    1: And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
    2: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are onthe earth.
    3: Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
    4: Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
    5: And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
    6: And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
    7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
    8: Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
    9: These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
    10: And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
    11: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
    12: Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
    13: And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
    14: And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
    15: Every raven after his kind;
    16: And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
    17: And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
    18: And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
    19: And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
    20: All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
    21: Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
    22: Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
    23: But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
    24: And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.
    25: And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
    26: The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
    27: And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.
    28: And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.
    29: These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
    30: And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
    31: These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
    32: And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
    33: And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth,
    whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
    34: Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be
    drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
    35: And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
    36: Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
    37: And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
    38: But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
    39: And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
    40: And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
    41: And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
    42: Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
    43: Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
    44: For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Not a hint of getting stoned .. approved or otherwise.
    Now if all these haminals were created by God, why are they determined as being an Abomination?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  14. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Seeds of understanding

    Genesis 1:29
    Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the Earth;

    point is that of the 45 or so herbs, nuts and flavourings named,

    none have hallucinatory properties.

    Mind you, there are a number of appearances and 80 visions .... are you thinking these good people were on something? Although some scholars consider a poppy is mentioned, it is only in terms of wormwood and hemlock as not being fit for eating. Struggling here to find a reference or allusion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  15. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Excellent treeve - I can see you've put a lot of thought into this - which is appreciated.

    Aware that I appear to be standing in quicksand on this, I'll throw in this thought. Let's reclassify 'God' as some sort of creator/spirit being and religion as we know it, whatever the faith, is all wrong as basically we are 'worshipping the wrong thing'. So, whatever it was that created us is not 'God' as we know it.

    So perhaps evidence of what we are discussing here cannot be found in the Bible, the Koran or say any other established religious texts, as basically, we're all 'worshipping' the wrong 'thing'.

    As the Hawkwind song goes - 'We took the wrong steps years ago'.

    Quick - someone chuck me a life line!
     
  16. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Quite ... But we need to talk abut the 'religion' that is a part of our 'culture' and being, the one that has been handed down and transferred to our consciousness. We do not relate to any other, directly.

    As to any definition of God as being Architect and Creator / Instigator. I see this as a 'Force' that holds the Universe together, that formed it in the first place. A Force that exists and always will exist. It is an other Spirit. It is the Gel that holds it all together. Holds us all together. It is the Unified Force, The Gestalt of the Total Human Psyche, the projection to ourselves and from ourselves to the Great Force (ie God the family). I do believe in the power of unified prayer, for example. This is what I have been saying about meditative vision.

    It is what I feel in a Holy Place, it is what has been Imbued by thousands over the centuries (for example, the Statue of St Peter in the Basilica in Rome, statues, ancient standing stones) the combined will/prayer of many projected/chanelled as one singular combined power.

    To the original question, I knew it could not be found in our own past, or linked with external pasts, it had to be defined by other facts; the development of the plant, the development of the world and the development of Man and his need to belong, and to seek outside supports. We cannot view the average airhead of today with the 'shamen' or ' wise men' of the ancients in any case. They needed guidance to gain powers to help their 'tribe'. Modern junkies have been trapped and only do it for kicks as an escapology. There is no benefit to Man by watching a misguided soul killing themselves horribly, except in generating the message DON'T DO IT.

    One factor to be taken on board in investigation and of logical paths, it that the evidence may not be found because the evidence is either illigocal or it does not exist.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  17. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    As a matter of completeness, I am looking into another aspect of this, on a Biblical level. This is fairly intense, bear with me.
    It is in direct connection with your question....כן, בנאדם, מגניב
     
  18. tabtab13

    tabtab13 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,566
    Likes Received:
    6
    Excellent treeve - will look forward to your next post.
     
  19. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    About halfway through the discussion .... This is fascinating ...
     
  20. treeve

    treeve Major Contributor

    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    118
    Drugs of Biblical proportions?


    Whilst on the subject, I checked into other assertions, with wild claims of hemp and cannabis (yeah, man, like its the same root, whatever, as Canaan), if that was the case, our Phoenician visitors must have had a problem navigating their way to Cornwall. However, I take on board the Purple people of the Khurrites, Kinahu = Canaanites. That is the difficulty in linguistics and 'modern cultures' ... The original text must be found to state it has or has not a 'common root'. It seems more like a misinterpretation of the term 'Promised Land'. :)

    Many of the plants were completely unknown to the translators, so whatever 'fitted' was written. Also remember that the Pentateuch was not written until thousands of years after the events. The word was passed down by memory amongst those of The Tabernacle. The 'Old Testament' is a collection of scriptures handed down to us, collected and determined, much was translated and re-translated, When we read of a subject, it is important to discover the original, or face the consequences of Chinese Whispers.

    It is also vital to consider the context. It is vital to gain a grip on intention and use as not necessarily being te same thing. For example fire can warm and bring comfort, but it can also destroy hideously. It can be used to generate steam which powers machines to benefit our lives, but that same steam can also destroy hideously.

    Exodus 30
    23, Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels.
    24, And of cassia five hundred shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin:
    25, And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.

    Sweet Calamus ... what was/is it? Whatever it was, it does not say it was in order to to blow your Biblical Mind with it. It was an ingredient believed to be pure, prepared with cleanness, kept with cleanness, used with cleanness. To be used to Bless as an anointing oil.

    We now wait many centuries. Sara Benetowa apparently worked on the original meaning of ‘kaneh bosm’ (anglicized of the Hebrew קְנֵה-בֹשֶׂם) ; For some reason, as yet unexplained, she set out to discover the true meaning, history and subsequent translations of that term. Described as a Polish anthropologist and etymologist.
    She attended the Faculty of Humanities in the University of Warsaw and graduated with a degree in anthropology. Upon receiving her degree, she published a Paper at the Institute of Anthropological Sciences in Warsaw in 1936, Tracing One Word Through Different Languages. From this she attended graduate school at Columbia University, where she received her doctorate in 1944. It is affirmed that the Paper was written before the prohibition against Cannabis in 1937. She was born in 1903. She later married, became Sula Benet, and died in 1982.

    This is going to be 5 posts ..... I have a little checking to do for that last part.
     

Share This Page