Deep Writings

treeve

Major Contributor
Hmmm - it is that you have a Dark Side, young tabtab the 13th??

The Allegory in Narnia is as plain as a pikestaff.
This secret meaning? Is that something of which CS Lewis wrote or is it some wild imaginings of hindsight? I often hear ramblings of someone who 'sees' or 'knows' what was in the mind of an artist when painting a work. Talk about divine networks.

Unfortunately so many literary works are now 'suspect' as they do not conform to the politically correct code of practice; it is too easy for over sensitive and under sensible modern society to fall into the trap of throwing out the baby with the bathwater - even the Pope fell foul of that one, recently. :D
 

tabtab13

Active Member
Narnia

Yes, the religious aspect is well known, it was more the third layer being a 'revelation'. From memory. there was no concrete evidence this was intended by Lewis, so more of a speculation based on the man, his work, his beliefs etc.
Hogwash? Quite possibly - we see what we want to see. As a concept, I found it highly interesting - there's a number of threads on the web should you be interested in finding out more.

As for having a dark side, well, more than likely. In the mid 80's I developed a pathological interest in the fall of Berlin. I devoured any book I could find on the subject, cross referenced information I found, studied maps - the whole shebang. Completely engrossed in the books - I was 'there'. That is the power of the written word.

I also went there a number of times for more 'on site' research. This is not to be confused with an interest in Nazism, this was an interest in a once beautiful city having gone through its death throes. The destruction of a once cultured but misguided people, the suffering of the old and young during the final days and the barbarity of what happened once the Russians arrived.

Why that interest? I have no idea whatsoever, what triggered it is a mystery. What I have learnt though is that it's an interest to steer clear of, if possible. A moment of weakness had me watching a recent three part documentary on BBC2 about Berlin, and the darkness stirs from its sleep ....
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Please give some URLs of sites, I would be interested.

Man has long been fascinated by the Face of Death and Destruction - we stand in fear transfixed by the awesome sight; the trouble is that those with Power do not really learn from what they see. The whole period was one of manipulation of the masses, the losers being ordinary people of many nations. Loss of nationality, freedom, belief, landscape, buildings, towns, land and sovereignty, dignity, pride, possessions, family, lives and then to the extent of the carve-up afterwards and the diaspora, followed by more evil and distrust between enemies and neighbours .... The Man on the street still has no freedom in that sense. We are still manipulated by higher forces that strip our being. Berlin epitomises all that has happened in the world before and afterwards.
 

tabtab13

Active Member
Narnia Urls

There's none I would recommend in particular, but if you google 'Narnia Code', you get a good selection. I'd be interested in hearing what you think.

On the subject of lions, ever seen the video clip of the two blokes who bought a lion cub from Harrods in the 70s? Quite unbelievable now, apparently Harrods had an exotic pets section at the time. To cut a long story short, it got too big (now there's a surprise) so they decided to take him to Africa and release him. They later went back, the lion was found and its greeting captured on film. A truly beautiful moment. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeE4c3U63Hc&feature=related if curious.
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Not to be taken Lion down

Re: Narnia; Thanks ... I will let you know ...

Great Film, one of those cases that Proves that Loving IS letting go.
It also proves that animals have a greater capacity for making relationships than is thought, it transcends the animal instinct.
As much as I love seeing animals, beyond the domestics, they are wild animals and are a part of the wild environment. Good to see.
 

tabtab13

Active Member
Koko

Apologies upfront - I'm going right off topic now.

Re: 'also proves that animals have a greater capacity for making relationships than is thought' - have a look at this: http://www.koko.org/world/kokoflix.php?date=1999-04-05

Koko is a gorilla who has been taught rudimentary American sign language and this link takes you to a video clip on her site showing her with a kitten. Extremely moving ...
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Yes indeed this needs more reading, but as soon as I see Drosnin's highly flawed Bible Code and the name of that bigot Dawkins and his own delusionary thinking, which on every page has flaws and illogical thought (or rather that is a contradiction, there is no thought process), mentioned in the same breath as a 'Narnia Code', my hackles rise. I will need to separate them. I already knew of the age old tie with Greek and Roman Myth with the Medieval view, expressed in Gustav Holst's musical visionary work 'The Planets'; we have to be very aware too that that was a time of plot and counterplot, of codes and secrets, of scientific books of magical powers and created books to mystify the researcher. Some handed down to us, some more recently 'found' were actually hand created in 1930 on a pre-bound but empty codex.
You have to keep both feet firmly on the ground and to know every twist and turn of the world at that time. The trail left in the Voynich Manuscript was brilliantly forged, even to take account of plot and counterplot, in 'hiding itself' to give the document credulity; I want to get more on Walsingham (Elizabeth's Spymaster General and on earlier codemasters and mystics). Trouble is that the whole of history in that early period is founded perhaps on lies and damned lies.
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Apologies upfront - I'm going right off topic now. ...
I have to add that I should have said relationships with humans; but with Koko, being a mere percentage [1% of 220 million pairs is still a big number] away from human, as great as that is, the point is still valid. This is something that humans are blessed with - a sight or thought triggers of another in a side alley. Communication is what it is all about ....
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Aaaargh!!

Unable to find my copy of the Kabbalah,
I thought to search on Amazon.
Not only do I find the answer to Life and the secrets of the Universe for £6.71(!!),
I find the Hebrew Angel Tarot (!!!!???)
and ....
The Kabbalah Code (aaaaargggh!!) ..... I despair.
 

tabtab13

Active Member
The Kabbalah Code? Excellent! I have to admit to having a fascination with the concept behind such books - like The Bible Code, The da Vinci Code etc. I find the thought of ancient knowledge - in the form of a book or whatever - being discovered sets the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

Though I would hope that if such a book was ever found, it would be in 'plain english', i.e. not in any encoded format.

Perhaps we all have a yearning for lost information to a certain degree - it would explain why such films as Raiders of the Ark was so popular.

Not quite the same thing, but what are your views on the Dead Sea scrolls?
 

treeve

Major Contributor
As far as I can tell, they appear to be trying to get on the bandwagon of the really well written and well researched 'The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail' by Lincoln, Baigent and Leigh. I have always had an eye and ear to the stories and mysteries in any case. The Knights Templar and The Cathars. One severe problem in attempting any 'Code' is to ensure the trail is continuous and to ensure the original text is as written. The point about the Kabbalah is that it was unwritten. That is until Simon ben Jochai. Find me a copy of that .... It was not until the 13th century that a version of it was created in Spain, but it also had origins in 1175 in France ... it goes on. It is in the terms of The Talmud, the word of God handed down by word of mouth. It therefore follows that any printed word becomes the word of the person that wrote it ... which version should be followed ... the one in the Torah. How many languages and how many scribes prepared The Torah? Anybody wanna buy a book?
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Dead Sea Scrolls

The Essene have been at the root of my spiritual interest for many years; The Scrolls are of incredible importance, though I admit to not having read the transcriptions for a long time, your question prompts me to return to them.

Yes, here it is, Geza Vermes The Dead Sea Scrolls in English. Not a Novel, which is why I started this thread, but who is counting. Given to me for my 21st birthday.
 
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tabtab13

Active Member
The Gnostic Gospels

Have you done much reading or research into the Gnostic gospels?

From my understanding, they were left out when the time came to put the Bible on paper (or rather parchment) - the Bible was an 'editors job' in the sense the religious authorities at the time deemed what they thought should be included and what should be left out.

What difference to Christianity do you think there would be if the Bible was more 'female friendly'? Of course, there is the Virgin Mary but I'm thinking more of Mary Magdalene and her gospel? Other than scholars suggesting the possibility of a relationship between herself and Jesus, I guess it was felt at the time that women should not have opinions on any aspect connected to God.

How much do you think we have lost from the transition of ancient religions where the Female was worshipped as the 'giver of life' to Christianity where Man became dominant?
 

treeve

Major Contributor
Gnosis/gnostic/MmMagdeline ... in a word, None. Fairly new in discovery. I have not had a chance to look at them or their dating in concert with other books. What has to be remembered it that the Hebrew Bible, the Pentateuch was the cornerstone of all beliefs. It was vital to keep the Torah intact. The Massoretico-critical is laid out in a form of descendency of absolute by Christian Ginsburg. For me to check through the various other forms of Holy Bible and the versions that include the Apocalyptic books will take a while, I do have it all here. As far as the Talmud is concerned it does make it clear that God is a family and is man and woman, child and spirit. It as far as I can tell was no different from any other male dominated heirarchy. [It is strange though in comparison the that in Egypt, where the Throne and the Crown was fronted by males, yet was absolutely dominated by the matriarchy]. Another dominance came into being when it was printed, following hot on the tail of Church and its control, the crown with its control - information, reading, was wrested from the hands of the public. let alone that of women. I have a book on Women through the ages ... it is mind boggling. As far as transition is concerned, really and truly, I strongly doubt that women figured at all in the age as far as the Covenant was concerned. Many tribes were ascribed day to day menial tasks, the top jobs given to the big men. The other point is that the parchments and tablets have been written, re-written, translated, re-written, copied by scribe to scribe; I have no doubt fragments have been lost, and some re-written by word of mouth from memory, then re-translated. That did not happen in the original plan of the Kabbalah (being based on the Torah).
 

treeve

Major Contributor
This thread is to accommodate some posts from the thread That's Novel, as they are more appropriate here ...
 

treeve

Major Contributor
The Creation of Women

[This is something that I have been writing for over ten years, so I welcome the opportunity to finish. It traces modern day views on womanhood.
At this point, I hasten to add that in no way am I anti-Semitic, nor blatantly pro/anti Feminist. I simply feel very strongly about 'women's lot']
Many discussions arise from the acceptance of the Story of the Creation of Man (Adam and Eve) in Genesis as being a tangible fact. For me, the story is one of Allegory and of Spiritual Growth, of the Acquisition of Knowledge and what happens to The Soul and to Society. It is as if the whole of the Planned coming to be of Man is represented in a story akin to Greek Myth. It does not denigrate the Essence of Reverence. It has to be remembered that the scriptures were written by people who would have no knowledge of the Very Being of God or the Nature of The Universe, or of Creation itself; Nor would it be understood by those that read it or those that heard The Word. If it were otherwise, there would be no present need for scientific discussion and theorising as to the origins of the universe, as futile as that is proving to be. As much as we have the Masoretic Texts and their authenticity, it is accepted that there was no single Masoretic Text, the presently known texts were created in the early middle ages. The fact that resolution may be found between the scrolls found in ‘the dead sea scrolls’ and the early middle ages texts is testament to the degree that The Talmud ensured accuracy of the scribes work and the continuance of the teachings. Whether or not the scribes work included copying precise locations of each letter on the sheet, or of the continuance of the precise form of the letter is something that I would question. The reason for this line of writing is that Hebrew was originally a Consonantal language, no vowels, though now there are vowel marks to indicate the type of sounds. Another modern issue is the ever extending spiral of contention as to what is implied or what is meant, or the divisions that Man places on how things should be … not how they are written to mean, so the ultimate Path of Faith becomes a Lost Way. There are Schisms in The Church, man against woman, Creationists and Darwinists. It soon takes on the Black Cloak of an Orwellian Nightmare.

Returning to Genesis, we have to rely on translation and transliteration of meaning and sounds. Genesis I 26: And God said, let us make Man in our own Image, after our likeness; 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [taken from the King James’ version 1611]. In Chapter 2, another account of The Creation. Verse 7 bemoaning the absence of anyone to till the soil for plants (thereby accepting that agriculture was immediately necessary) the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 15 And the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it. Here we have another reason for believing that Chapter One and Two were written separately:- here the animals were created after man; in the first they were created before man. Here woman is created separately and after man … Verse 20 onwards. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam (appearing by name in vs19) and he slept: and he took one of his ribs … which the Lord God … made he a woman and brought her unto the man. Vs 23-4 is vital. And Adam said, this is now my bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Note the immediate fact of there being a father and mother for the man to leave to then cleave unto a wife.

In Chapter 3 she is still ‘the woman’ as the allegory of The Serpent unfolds, depicting the acquiring of knowledge from the forbidden Tree. The dichotomy is before us. It is accepted that there is to be a husband and wife, for the purpose of the procreation of man and woman, this requires physical contact, we are seen as loving souls as part of God, but this Knowledge of our physical frailties causes us awareness of the Nakedness and therefore the Shame in the Face of God. Typical man, he blames ‘the woman’ for tempting him. In the process causes grief from God for the Serpent to be accursed and then God turns on woman and declares she will always bring forth children in sorrow. She is also told that her desire will be her husband and that ‘he shall rule over thee’. Adam is then informed that he is kicked out of Eden and that in sorrow shalt thou eat … along with all the other penalties, including the mortality and the ultimate return to the dust from when he came. Why?
Because ‘thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife’.
In Ch3 vs 20 the woman is named Eve by Adam,
because she was the mother of all living.

Here is a Holy Scripture first written down in 70 AD, from The Word handed down by word of mouth, but unlike the Holy Bible in Britain, the Hebrew Torah was and is transcribed according to Strict Law.
 
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treeve

Major Contributor
2 The Seeds

[How women got the short straw]
It was clear from the early Biblical texts that women were treated as equals, they were prophets, they were not excluded from worship, on top of being used as models for wisdom, (take Proverbs - Wisdom is a Sister; wisdom is within God at creation.) They enjoyed commercial enterprise which was considered a virtue, they had the possibility of free choice in marriage, they were not considered property; whatever is read to the opposite in The Bible is used as example of the worst to be seen in the times and is used as example of what not for it to be. The Books of Esther and of Ruth stand as pillars in The Bible. The Apocrypha gives us the Books of Judith and of the highly accusatory story of Susanna. This last not only holds high the virtue of womanhood, but decidedly points at the establishment. Not only beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. Changes in the perception of womankind came about from the Babylonian Exile 586 BC, when the priests devised a set of laws to keep them and the Temple pure. At that time what was seen as a normal bodily function became controlled by ‘the religious elite’. The necessity of circumcision became a ritual, menstruation became determined as blood unclean and with that sexes became separated in worship and in society. Sexuality became a point of contention, where it was not before. The veil appeared, women were not considered trustworthy in court, not allowed to speak the words of The Torah, not allowed to be taught at all. A Holy Anomaly has arisen; they were created equal being one flesh, by God. Yet Man has determined they are not. Women now were perceived as something else, the list is horrendous; it is therefore no wonder at the reception given to One who gave not a fig for the teachings of the Old Testament. Despite their failings in the eyes of society, women were seen to be extremely powerful in using their persuasion and seduction. Yes another bad point. The family, that other mainstay of life was at risk from women; the fact that it takes two to hora has been ignored. The message is that there is good and bad in all; it is how each faces the situation, it is not for us to judge the tempter but in how we judge ourselves, the tempted. That is perfectly shown in Susanna.
 
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treeve

Major Contributor
Revelations

[Women get not even a Bayeux Leave]
I often hear that Christianity and The Bible have no relevance in this Modern World; I would ague that it has absolutely everything to do with it. The Modern World exists as the summation of all other Ages that has preceded it. The central book (if I can term it as that) that has existed in perpetuity throughout, and in the process has been central to the building of Church, Throne and Society. The Holy Bible was at the core of learning and scientific argument. For thousands of years it has stood, whilst men and their armies spread blood across Europe, whilst South America was raped by Europe … the list continues. Our Thinking is moulded by centuries of conditioning, to the point where it is vital to ask ourselves ‘Why do I think like that?’ It is easy to dismiss The Church from daily lives in 2009. Just because it is erased from life does not erase it from our inner minds. It is there, like it or not. Like the constant cry of who put religion into Christmas anyway? Christmas is the total collection of religion, myth, and tradition for century upon century, and amalgamation of every aspect of every people, society and nation it has met. Through it all the core is the Heart of wellbeing to our neighbour. At the Root of that is Love. Or rather its proper meaning.

Women had inherited their role as the continuance of the species through Roman times, marrying in early teens, to die in their twenties or thirties; it is thought by some that the origination of a greeting kiss on the mouth stemmed from the Roman action of checking if the woman had been drinking. All in all the Roman lady suffered great dominance from the male, but won her day in the obtuse law against her spending money on finery and jewels, proving that unified numbers can win overwhelmingly.

England had jumped from Anglo Saxon 'woman at the side of man' to Middle Ages subjugation. Where did this start? In 1066 William changed all that, when we became French. As I said, what we are now is the sum of past ages.

In exactly the same manner attitude towards women has grown and transformed from the beginnings in 586BC, spread through other cultures, collected other traits of machoism and patriarchy, to the point of degradation, exploitation and downright abuse. We are also conditioned by the progress of the Throne, disagree? Pikestaff in the chest. Disagree … off with his head. Disagree … lose your stately home. It is in this queue of rule and disaster that it is only too easy to accept one’s lot.

Throughout English history there have been women who have stood for what they feel is Right. I take as such a person Julian of Norwich; she lived at a time when even writing at all was a big no-no for women. She is now known for the fact that she is the first writer in England to be identified in fact as a woman. She was born 1442 and lived at least for 70 years. She received in 1373 visions, of which she has written Revelations of Divine Love. A major contribution to Faith and The Church.
 

treeve

Major Contributor
King James and all that ….

[Why women are different - from what they should be]
In 1611, it must have been another Revelation like that in 70AD when the first was written, for the first time. Other Books had been written of course as separate parchments and/or scrolls. Each meticulously copied by scribes throughout history. Then along came the press and moveable type, with Gutenberg in 1450. It was tight, as there was never enough type to complete a whole bible. Expecting each page to be the same as its fellow in another copy was pure hope, the first Pentateuch in Hebrew in 1482. The King James Bible was awarded its format, it is Authorised, through a patent granted in 1577, granted to Christopher Barker by Queen Elizabeth and printed 1609-1611. This has been transferred from printer to printer to William Collins in 1858; this is a monopoly, make no mistake from 1860 it remains. The next version to appear is the New English Bible, with what were considered appropriate modern translation of the old text which had been written in a Shakespearean prose.

So, in the King James Authorised version is the collective translation and subtranslation of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin; in that Holy Bible reside the known Books and Writings of that time. Old & New Testaments and the Apocrypha.

What was a loose collection of books became a single book. Decision as to order and content had to be made. From 70AD had been raged the fight as to correct canon. By that time some of the New Testament had begun. All of this fight was handled by religious fervour (roughly translated as testosterone) and exclusionism. Hebrew, Christian and Heretic were in traditional confrontation, women being swept aside regardless. A nodding pass to represent women’s place in their age and beliefs. That they have been included in the Holy Texts is of great value for historians and believers alike. It was at this point that another schism opened between the Hebrew canon and the Early Christian canon (under the hand of Marcion and Iraneous. It took considerable debate to produce the Old Testament, as we know it, in 325 AD at Nicaea. I can only surmise as to the arguments and discussions, and I have even to question what we see now in relation to what existed then. As each document was translated from language to language, it has to have lost meaning along the way. But when it ‘hit’ the Latin and or Greek, it would remain so for centuries, being the language of scholars. Again women were largely precluded. But, here is a book of alarming proportions and importance in what was then modern society. Its heritage and peoples were all of another land, far removed from English Life; it was being held up as the Luminance of Life, as an example of how one should be. It became the people’s for another reason, it brought the written word to those that had not seen it before. The language of English itself was being spread with its poetic phraseology, its often lyrical words.

This was a time of endless versions of The Bible ‘One Bible to Rule The All’ was called for by the Throne. Protestants, Septuagint Coverdale Bishop’s Bible, Geneva. All from Church and Throne with no voice for women. Save what is to be read in the Holy Texts and all governed by The Churches. What later emerged though the Georgian Era and the Victorian Period has been formed and promoted by the extension of those principles of exclusion. As can be seen the present Word, even in the stilted English of the New English Bible, lacking prose it does not enter the soul, Because it is a scholarly translation. I would like to know how many women were involved in this work. I place the reasons for the lack of awareness of women and the general attitudes towards women at the feet of those that have given us these holy words. I place it at the feet of those that have terrorised the land with tales of witches (lonely old ladies with only folk remedies and tales to keep them alive), I place it is the feet of those that have treated women over the ages with derision as to their ‘lack of intelligence’, their ‘lack of ability’, jealousy of their ability to communicate, their ability to speak to each other on matters of the heart..

In the Gospel of Mary Magdelen is a very important ‘ruling’ given by Him. 'Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it'. It unfortunately is a fragment, but it does make clear that even then Peter had considerable reservations that a 'mere woman' had conversations of such importance. Not the least factor either is that Mary's language and perception is deeper. That and the 'Rule' possibly held fears for the men of the time. The Alternatives would be fascinating.

[the end of my thoughts on the subject]
 

tabtab13

Active Member
Treeve - your last few postings here have been an excellent read and I've thoroughly enjoyed them. Thanks for posting.
 
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